Kids Along For The Call

[Eydawn]

Chas, it's called Venturing... and through the Venturing, you can gain valuable experience while still being in a controlled setting (aka scouting events), rather than on an unpredictable emergency response call.

3rd rides are a double edged sword. On the one hand you are providing 15+ kids with valuable experiences as well as a better look at the profession. On the other hand, you're exposing them to all of the occupational hazards we face.

Speaking as someone who's been a minor 3rd rider.... I think it depends on the mental and maturity level of the individual. I know plenty of 16 year olds who have their act together, and plenty of 21 year olds who don't. But I would say, basing things on the population in general and my experiences WITH MY OWN CREW, that the dangers outweigh the benefits of experience in 90% of cases. I'd much rather see most of my guys in the ED, because you can duck into a room if things get hairy... and you stay in one place, so you can be fetched by your folks easier if necessary.

Unfortunately, when you let a 15 year old into the back of the ambulance, you expose them to that "I know it all, I'm perfectly competent exactly where I am" mentality that we're trying to fight in EMS education... and it just gets reinforced and makes it that much harder to advance the profession.

There are always exceptions to any rule. Chas, you may be an exception, and if deemed competent enough to handle things I have no problem with the idea of you being a 3rd rider. I wasn't nearly as smart as I thought I was back when I was 3rd riding... and fortunately, even the slight advance in age has allowed me to figure that out.

No minor should ever be completely responsible for patient care- ever. Not in an organization; wilderness and family emergency stuff is different. No minor should be allowed to enter a burning structure. There's a reason we don't let folks into the military until a certain age, and that reason applies in the fire service as well- judgement and legal competence.

Chas, PM me with where you live... I'll see if I can find some venturing links for ya!

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[mrmeaner]

There are always exceptions to any rule. Chas, you may be an exception, and if deemed competent enough to handle things I have no problem with the idea of you being a 3rd rider.

Think about being a patient and waking up in the back of the ambulance to a 15 year old getting instruction on patient care. Even if you are the most professional scout, explorer, whatever, you are not going to be seen that way by your patient. They're probably trying to figure out what armageddon they woke up to where they're getting medical treatment from a child. It's not fair to put the patient or the 15 year old in that position.

[Eydawn]

You know what? The 15 year old doesn't look a helluva lot different from the 18 year old in a lot of cases.... Like I said, it all depends on the situation and the individual involved.

Fortunately, most of my guys are restricted to go-fer duty and quiet observation. You know where they come in handy though? Calming down scared pediatric patients...

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[mrmeaner]

You know what? The 15 year old doesn't look a helluva lot different from the 18 year old in a lot of cases.... Like I said, it all depends on the situation and the individual involved.

Exactly. Neither one is likely to get any more respect than Rodney Dangerfield got for his wife.

Fortunately, most of my guys are restricted to go-fer duty and quiet observation. You know where they come in handy though? Calming down scared pediatric patients...

Also true. I never said they're useless, go-fers are very handy. Why do you think Radar was the only character played by the same actor in the movie and the shows? I just believe their patient interaction needs to be limited for the benefit of both the explorer, scout, etc. and the patient.

[emtd29]

If they're not duly sworn members of your dept.. well I'll just say......

NO!! Plain and simple. Flat out. NO!! It just isn't going to happen.

If you for whatever reason don't have someone at home to take care of the kids while you're running out for the call. well, then you just shouldn't be running out for the call.

[Paragod357]

[/font:e659312f73] I have been in healthcare far too long. The one constant is that people will have differences of opinions, often based on interpreting what was said completely different from what someone else does. That being said, I have seen an ambulance get hit. I watched it rock nearly three feet in the air before it came slamming back down on it's wheels as it slid sideways. I have responded to the scene of two more ambulance involved accidents. I know of at least a dozen more. I have transported noninvolved minors from medical scenes simply because there was no one else around to take care of them, and by state law we can not abandon them. They were always secured in a car seat or a shoulder/lapbelt if appropriate. I have taped buckles closed if I thought the child was unable/unwilling to follow directions. There was one that I seriously wanted to wrap in 2" silk tape and shove in a side compartment, oh wait, that was a partner...nevermind.

Common sense dictates that you do the BEST you can do with what you have in the situation. Not every scene has readily available solutions. The one factor we can change is how we respond to calls. Sometimes it works to have child care at the station waiting, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes having an "on call" child care provider works. Sometimes you just have to miss the call. The chief of one service I know of is very adamant that people use caution and common sense when they respond to the station. Another one believes in balls to the walls, get there at any cost. One has a 29 year record of no injuries responding to calls, the other has an EMT on permanent disability because he thought his blue light made him bulletproof. Both are towns of less than 1500 people, both have virtually identical response times. One pays a LOT more for insurance. Putting a child into that scenario is an unnecessary risk. Bringing your child to the scene in an ambulance makes absolutely no sense. The risk of them being injured is too high. The chance that they will see something disturbing is not worth it. I have calls that give me nightmares, I can't imagine the harm that they would do to a more fragile psyche. I have heard all the excuses and rationales as well as the "we can protect them from seeing, hearing, smelling anything bad like open wounds, charred bodies, naked people, and psych patients" plans. They are all a feeble attempt to make the parent feel better about doing something that is inherently stupid. If I mutual aid to your call and I see your kids on scene, I will point it out to the deputy or policeman on scene. Then I will have a talk with your chief. If you are the chief (it happened) I will talk to your trustees. I will also talk to your medical director. I dread ambulance involved calls and pray that I never find an innocent child of a crewmember dead or injured when they could have been somewhere safe and protected.

[firedoc5]

Due to a possible border line migraine starting and reading with just one eye, I admit I didn't read some of the longer posts. But it was in my experience we've had medics (one in particular) that would go on an Interstate transfers thinking they would be back in time for when their child would get home from school. Well needless to say it would not always work out that way. So about 3:10 we would hear on the radio that someone needed to pick up Chrissy. If we would go, and usually in an ambulance because we were usually already out and go and pick up Chrissy. We would strap her in the jump seat. But on the occasion before we would get her to the station where the dispatcher or secretary could watch her we would get a call. We would then put her up front so whoever was the passenger could ready whatever we thought we might need. Of course Chrissy got a kick out of it. When we got to the call Chrissy knew exactly what to do and not to do. I won't get into the list but she followed it to the 'T". and not once did we have a problem. This went on for at least six years. And I can honestly say that no matter what the call was she never "freaked'. Actually we were all very proud of her. And even though it didn't happen all the time it was frequent enough that when she graduated 8th grade we made her an Honorary EMT. :salute:

It did occasionally happen with other kids that we had to 'escort" from home but she was the one that was the regular.

It makes me feel old but I think she's about 28 with a couple of kids now

[BVESBC]

Older thread but I will post anyway. This is a little hard for me to say but, NO minors on any apparatus PERIOD NO Exceptions. This is from someone who basically grew up in a FD, My oldman was FD Chief for more than 20 years, Yes it has happened in the past but that is no reason to condone this. If you are seriously considering it give your insurance agent a call and get their prospective on it. Transporting minors with a ill or injured family member is some what diffrent, it was mentioned that you can not abandon the minor, seriously look for other options first, I have used PD to transport family minors to hospitals. Probably the worst personal situation I can recall is responding to a CP call and arriving to find a 60 something woman w/ active CP that was babysitting a grandchild (6-8y/o) after getting Pt into ambo we put the child in front passenger seat. We had no other option at the time. On the way to the hosp the pt deterioated to full arrest. At the ER the Pt was pronounced, the child was old enough to understand some of what took place and was very distraught, the child was able to tell us her parents cell phone number and I was able to contact the mother, and found out that both parents were on a vacation on the otherside of the country, with no other family nearby we ended up waiting for children and youth to come and take custody of the child, only about 15 min but it kept us O.O.S.

[firespec35]

I've been on both sides of this. I have been the kid with a dad in EMS (My dad got into it when I was 13) and I am now a paramedic. Our situation was different in ways. With us doing special events EMS. I would ride to the event either in my dad's car or the owner's truck. I would be free to go roam the festival or watch the concert where we were at. Most of the time I just stayed at our area and hung out with those working. I knew that if a patient came in to get/stay out of the way or if asked, do exactly what I was told (gofer type stuff). I didn't even ride in an ambulance on a call till I was 18(another company my dad was doing IFT stuff then). At the office of the special events job as I got older I could restock rigs and wash them. At 18 I got my basic class as a bday gift and was licensed just before my 19th birthday. I only ran into one issue when my dad was on the FD. We were at the station when I was 14 helping him install his lightbar when a 100 car MVA came in for a neighboring FD. They called mutual aid. Chief said I could stay at the station while my dad went. I sat and watched TV on the big screen while they were gone.

Now I'm a dad and my daughter is 8. She goes to the office with me sometimes (same special events gig) and she knows the supply room pretty well. I will let her go get little things for me (NRB's 4x4's Kling ect...) but I think that will be the extent of her experience for at least 10 years. IF she wants to do this when she gets older, hopefully I will be in a position to let her do her clinicals with me if she so desires. I know I have a lot of great memories from doing mine with my dad.

[gaelicfirefighter]

Anyone who brings anyone that is not part of your fire or ems system on their rigs is an absolute idiot. Why risk your career and their lives. I have never understood this. Unless it is a sanctioned ride along or training program.

Id never let my child near a CFD ambo. We clean them inside and out every shift but they are still full of nasty stuff like blood, disease and germs. Any my fire truck has five seats and five firefighters. Who's not going to have a seatbelt. I dont move the rig until everyone is belted in.

Why dont you just bring you kid to an unsafe/unsecure gunshot scene or right to the fire floor.

Its not worth the risk. Having people come for a visit to the firehouse is ok. If kids want to come to the house then a parent should be there. I dont want that responsibility. Its not a playground. It is a professional workplace full of professionals hopefully.