Is this considered backwards racism

[StickyEMT]

Off topic, but as I pointed out before, please please please use the correct term. It is Asian, NOT oriental!

(sorry, it just always irks me when I see the term oriental used, I know it is not used in malice, but still...)

No problem, I apologize sincerely! I will admit that I am....um....un-intelligent when it comes to that.

I was pretty heated too....lol

[Lone Star]

I adamantly disagree with lowering minimum standards for the purpose of hiring select groups! If you cannot pass the minimum skills required for a certain profession/ job, then you’ve got no business in that position.

Furthermore, I take umbrage when a qualified candidate who has absolutely stellar test scores get passed over in order to hire a considerably less qualified candidate, just for the purpose of keeping racial/gender balances.

If you want to be a Police Officer, Firefighter or EMT; then you need to be able to pass the minimum testing requirements just like any other white male has to; if you can’t, you don’t get a position in the academy/school.

Arbitrarily adjusting test scores (whether academically or physically), does NOT improve the hiring ‘gene pool’.

Public safety aside, if you apply for an office position and can’t type at least at the minimum speed/accuracy levels, then you don’t get the job! It’s that plain and simple. The same should apply for Public Safety jobs.

In no way am I saying that women or minorities can’t do these jobs, nor am I saying that they don’t belong in these professions. What I AM saying is that they need to meet the same requirements as men do. If they can’t then they need to look elsewhere until they can. The same applies to those that need ‘special treatment’ for the academic portion of the respective academies.

I can fully understand and support the Americans With Disabilities Act simply because of the negative stereotype associated with disabilities. BUT, and this is a big ‘but’, if you’re not even remotely qualified or able to do the job you’re applying for, then you shouldn’t get it.

Life isn't fair, and contrary to what they taught you in school, not everyone who tries out gets to play.

[tniuqs]

Doesn't hiring based on ethnicity define racism ?

[StickyEMT]

Doesn't hiring based on ethnicity define racism ?

And the clouds part, the angels sing......**Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!**

Bingo!

[DwayneEMTP]

By a show of hands...how many speaking here about what bullshit this is are black??

It seems to me that when you're part of the ruling class that it's pretty easy to hate on anything that may seem unfair. Blacks didn't start at the same starting line as whites in this country. Whites had gathered wealth, started corporations etc long before the first black was allowed into a public school. For things to be fair, people have to have equal chances.

If I choose to go into business I believe that I have the same tools and opportunities of any other man in my social/economical class, therefor I can compete. Now should I have to compete with Paris Hilton, then the playing field is no longer level. If it is she against myself, then I like my odds. If it is me against her and her family money...then things change pretty drastically. Without a miracle I can't realistically compete in her world simply because here family tree got too much of a head start on me. (Of course my family likely had the same chances way back when, but you see my point.)

Is the relationship between blacks and whites and opportunity all fucked up? Oh yeah. Unfortunately those that have been cheated now too often want a free ride instead of increased opportunity. I believe that many that claim that they can't pass the tests more than likely also qualify for financial educational aid. And if they don't then many should.

How about instead of lowering the bar we raise the candidate?

Dwayne

[HERBIE1]

How about instead of lowering the bar we raise the candidate?

Dwayne

Bingo. That is the million dollar question. This isn't an issue that can be legislated away or solved by throwing millions of dollars at the problem. Do some minorities have difficulty achieving success because of factors beyond their control(family issues, where they live, etc)? Yep. So do some Asians, Native Americans, Poles, Italians, Germans, Greeks, and every other racial or ethnic group.

There are also examples in every group of people who defy the odds and achieve success DESPITE their environment and upbringing. What about the folks who achieve success WITHOUT any special consideration- whether it's available or not to them? How do you explain that?

I think in many ways, this economic meltdown has been a great equalizer. Middle class folks have found themselves struggling to survive- struggling to pay their rent or mortgages, to put food on the table, to pay for an education for their children, or even to find a decent paying job. Problem is, they are also competing on an uneven playing field. There are programs that provide special assistance ONLY for those who are of a protected class. The irony here is that the middle class funds these set asides with their taxes, yet can never take advantage of them- even though they may be just as "needy" as anyone else. Grants, scholarships, financial aid, hiring set asides, job promotions- all designed to address past inequities. Well, thanks to the horrible economy, the gap for those differences in opportunities has narrowed significantly, and in many cases has actually been reversed.

Things like affirmative action and set asides were never about FIXING anything, they were retribution and paybacks to a very specific group that has had a horrible history of mistreatment here. That said, many other groups also have had tough times starting out in this country, and although they were never slaves here, they were also mistreated and discriminated against. From the mid 1800's and early 1900's, Irish, Chinese, Italians- nearly every ethnic group faced not only discrimination, but had the added barrier of having to learn the language to succeed here. For years, "No Irish/Poles/Italians need apply" signs were common in every major city.

Accommodations and assistance has morphed into entitlements, and I'm sorry, but there is no way in the world you can justify lowering the bar or having 2 sets of standards.

So, to your statement- how about not placing unfair barriers- or giving an unfair advantage- to further isolate and marginalize one group over another? Every person has an OPPORTUNITY to succeed here, but there are also no guarantees- for anyone.

[crotchitymedic1986]

Finally another voice of reason.......... thank you Dwayne !

P.S. When the US Justice Department gets involved in your hiring/promotion process, there is a good chance that you were doing something wrong.

Edited March 15, 2011 by crotchitymedic1986

[StickyEMT]

*Clapping for Dwayne*

Thank you for another vote in the "Voice of Reason" category! Instead of judging on the negatives, lets up the positives, right? Awesome.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I'm all for raising the candidate rather than lowering the bar.

What are some suggestions or things that could be put in place in order to do this.

Surely just re-writing the test failed already, so maybe that's not the right idea.

Do we start in the schools or at home?

Do we hold teachers accountable for their students performance or not?

The majority seems to want to hold teachers accountable but I have several friends and a sister in law who are teachers, two teach in predominately affluent white dominated schools and 2 teach in inner city style schools.

You can hold a teacher accountable for some of the poor performance in the schools but then do we also hold the students accountable?

The consistent underlying theme I get from my friends and sister in law is that you can only teach a student who is willing to learn. What of the student who doesn't care? Their test performance, or the test performance of enough of these types of studends if bad enough will pull down the entire classes test results thus skewing the results and making the teacher look like she/he didn't teach the students.

Like my friends say, you can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Then the teachers with sub par students are told to pass those students. What is a teacher to do?

What kind of improvements in the education system do you want to put in place that would raise the candidate rather than lower the bar?

I'm seeing where Dwayne and others are coming from but where do we make changes and how?

[emtannie]

By a show of hands...how many speaking here about what bullshit this is are black??

It seems to me that when you're part of the ruling class that it's pretty easy to hate on anything that may seem unfair. Blacks didn't start at the same starting line as whites in this country. Whites had gathered wealth, started corporations etc long before the first black was allowed into a public school. For things to be fair, people have to have equal chances.

I can see where you are going with this, but….. how do you then explain the immigrants to the USA and Canada who arrived here with nothing? The Irish, Chinese, Scottish, Russian, and others, who fled their countries, who did not speak English, who had no education, and who were met at every turn with “Irish Need Not Apply” signs, and blatant discrimination? How many of those ethnic backgrounds are still crying over the horrible misdeeds their ancestors were forced to endure, and using that as an excuse not to achieve?

Is the relationship between blacks and whites and opportunity all fucked up? Oh yeah. Unfortunately those that have been cheated now too often want a free ride instead of increased opportunity. I believe that many that claim that they can't pass the tests more than likely also qualify for financial educational aid. And if they don't then many should.

How about instead of lowering the bar we raise the candidate?

Dwayne

I agree with this wholeheartedly! I always wanted to be a brain surgeon, but I can’t pass the testing…. I don’t believe I should jump up and down and cry that because my grandparents were forced out of the country of their birth with nothing but the clothes on their back, and not even the hair on their heads (they had to shave their heads in order to board the ship, as they were not considered high class enough to not have lice), and because they weren’t given the same advantages as others, that now I can claim that life is so unfair that the world is against me in achieving my dream.

I'm all for raising the candidate rather than lowering the bar.

…..

Do we start in the schools or at home?

DEFINITELY the home! To the people who gave birth/spawned/hatched those children, they are your responsibility first, someone else’s responsibility second. You had that child, it is your responsibility to raise that child to be a responsible member of society. In the first years of a child’s life, before they get to school, they are already learning social interactions, dealing with emotions and right and wrong. To leave this education to the schools is a recipe for disaster.

Consider a schoolroom environment… anywhere from 20 – 35 or more children, 1 teacher, possibly an assistant or two… of those children, there is possibly one or more with learning disabilities, one or two who do not have English as their first language, one or two who did not have breakfast, one or two who did not have supper last night, one or two who have been physically or sexually abused in the last week…. And for some reason, we expect a single teacher to meet the needs of all of these students and turn them into responsible adults? That isn’t reasonable.

Do we hold teachers accountable for their students performance or not?

To an extent, teachers can be held responsible. They need to control the classroom environment enough to encourage learning; however, there is usually no checkmark for “genetics” to explain why some children will never meet the minimum standard set. It is the teacher’s responsibility to provide the best opportunity for learning – they cannot force that learning into a child’s brain.

You can hold a teacher accountable for some of the poor performance in the schools but then do we also hold the students accountable?

Absolutely we should hold the students responsible! At what point did we lose sight of consequences for actions? We have become a nation of blame. “It isn’t Johnny’s fault he isn’t successful – his teacher/friends/life in general is to blame.”

Like my friends say, you can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Then the teachers with sub par students are told to pass those students. What is a teacher to do?

Unfortunately, the reasons behind a child who is unwilling to learn are numerous, and may be difficult to find. The current educational system is quagmired in “can’t hold them back, can’t pass them either.” Children are falling through the cracks of the school system due to a combination of lack of funding, resources, direction, and control. Again, parents are needed to fill the gaps that the school cannot provide, and by working together, the student has a better chance.

What kind of improvements in the education system do you want to put in place that would raise the candidate rather than lower the bar?

I'm seeing where Dwayne and others are coming from but where do we make changes and how?

What are the basic problems?

1. Parental responsibility in child raising is diminishing – we need to educate people that they are responsible for their children’s success first, and not assume the school system will do it for them.

2. Schools are under-funded, under-staffed, over-crowded, and ill-equipped to handle the multiple needs of students.

3. We have become a nation of blame – it isn’t my fault I failed – it must be someone else’s fault. And, attached to this, we are the nation of no consequences – instead of me being responsible for my failures, and working to fix those, I can blame someone else, and not bear the consequences myself.

Solutions?

How do we teach people to be parents? Honestly, I am stumped there. Do we really need shows like “Teen Moms” to show us how poor parents people really are? Why do we give those parents their 15 minutes of fame, and not the skills to actually be effective parents?

We can fund schools more appropriately, but if we don’t meet the first issue, I don’t think we are truly solving the problem. There are discussions on holding teachers and students accountable… how about holding parents responsible?

But back to the first post... racism? I think we need to get past the "blacks didn't score as well" and find out WHY blacks didn't score as well. Is there truly a discrepancy in the testing, or is it a case of people knowing they don't have to put in the same effort, to still get the job? I don't agree with anyone getting a job or promotion based on other than their qualifications.

(Edited to correct grammar only)

Edited March 15, 2011 by emtannie