Mosque at Ground Zero is a "Slap in the Face"

[maverick56]

Not to be devils advocate...

But the terrorists attacks were not because of religion, but because of political reasons. I don't see how so many people here think this is a religious attack. It really shows an immaturity to the topic. The 9/11 atacks were political in nature.

And of course, I have to add this in...b/c people will start calling me an american hating terrorist if I don't. I don't condone any of their actions, they were sick POS's. But it makes this situation a lot easier to understand if you know why were were attacked.

Not because they hate our "freedom" or because of our religion. It was strictly political and if you can't grasp why then there is no use really talking about the subject anymore is there?

That being said I don't care if they build a mosque. Not all muslims are terrorists. But the fact the terrorists were muslim will make it a hard sell, especially those ignorant enough to this this was a religious and not a political attack

Ok... problem with that is that, in the Muslim world, there is no delineation between religion and politics. It's a theocratic society. It may be very true that some members at the upper echelons of government/organizations may not actually be that religious, however religion is what they use to mobilize, manipulate, govern and justify their people and actions. You can't just say "it's not about religion," because for the foot soldiers, the suicide bombers, the pilots of those planes, it is very much about religion. I have absolutely no illusions that the brains and the money behind such operations have much more to their motives than 72 virgins and bringing glorious Jihad to Allah. If they didn't, they'd be strapping C-4 to their own chests rather than recruiting pissed off teenage boys to do it. But that does not take religion out the equation, not by a long shot.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ok... problem with that is that, in the Muslim world, there is no delineation between religion and politics. It's a theocratic society. It may be very true that some members at the upper echelons of government/organizations may not actually be that religious, however religion is what they use to mobilize, manipulate, govern and justify their people and actions. You can't just say "it's not about religion," because for the foot soldiers, the suicide bombers, the pilots of those planes, it is very much about religion. I have absolutely no illusions that the brains and the money behind such operations have much more to their motives than 72 virgins and bringing glorious Jihad to Allah. If they didn't, they'd be strapping C-4 to their own chests rather than recruiting pissed off teenage boys to do it. But that does not take religion out the equation, not by a long shot.

But according to AMBODriver, it's not about religion, just politics.

I'm still waiting on Ambo to post his reasons why he says it's not about religion but all about politics.

I thought that they flew the planes into the towers and bombed us for Jihad and Allah's glorification.

I admit I am woefully undereducated about muslims, should I be yep, but I'm not.

I rely on AK to help me to that path of enlightenment and knowledge. Lord knows he's taught me a thing or two.

[JPINFV]

Ok... problem with that is that, in the Muslim religious world, there is no delineation between religion and politics. It's a theocratic society. It may be very true that some members at the upper echelons of government/organizations may not actually be that religious, however religion is what they use to mobilize, manipulate, govern and justify their people and actions. You can't just say "it's not about religion," because for the foot soldiers, the suicide bombers, the pilots of those planes, it is very much about religion. I have absolutely no illusions that the brains and the money behind such operations have much more to their motives than 72 virgins and bringing glorious Jihad to Allah. If they didn't, they'd be strapping C-4 to their own chests rather than recruiting pissed off teenage boys to do it. But that does not take religion out the equation, not by a long shot.

Plenty of political issues even today in the Western world is motivated by politics. Gay marriage anyone? Blue laws? Additionally, to believe that other religions haven't been used to "mobilize, manipulate, govern, or justify their people and actions" shows pure ignorance of history. The abuse of religion that's going on with the Islamic terrorists of today has been used by plenty of other religions in the past. It is, by no means, a purely Islamic issue.

[OwleyMedic]

While these churches are building new places of worship in other countries,how many of their innocent people were killed by Judeo-Christian terrorists? How many innocent people were killed in the name of God, Jesus Christ or any other god/prophet? How many innocents were slaughtered in the name of a self proclaimed 'holy war'?

Look at all the innocent people killed in Iraqi and Afghanistan, plenty I would suggest. These people killed in the "BUSH" holy war...

Edited June 15, 2010 by OwleyMedic

[maverick56]

Plenty of political issues even today in the Western world is motivated by politics. Gay marriage anyone? Blue laws? Additionally, to believe that other religions haven't been used to "mobilize, manipulate, govern, or justify their people and actions" shows pure ignorance of history. The abuse of religion that's going on with the Islamic terrorists of today has been used by plenty of other religions in the past. It is, by no means, a purely Islamic issue.

I'm guessing that first line is typo?

Where did I say that it was purely an Islamic issue?? Of course politics are motivated by religious views - religion helps to shape people's values, ideals and perceptions of right and wrong. Politics are also motivated by socioeconomic mores, family values, cultural beliefs, and the five o'clock news. That's not my point.

What I said was that you can't simply state that the 9/11 attacks were either purely political (as ambodriver stated) or purely religious - the two cannot be separated. I did say that this is particularly true in Muslim society, where governments are not only effected, but built upon a single religion, Islam. The Ayatollah is a supreme religious leader first and foremost, as are the royal families in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Oman. And we can't forget the Taliban. This is not a bias against Islam or Muslims, it's a statement of fact based on study of the religion, the region and first-hand observation of both.

Nowhere did I say that other religions aren't also abused or manipulated or that religion does not impact government elsewhere (including the US). That would be an ignorant blanket remark and I shy away from those. Perhaps you should do the same?

edited for clarity

Edited June 16, 2010 by maverick56

[JPINFV]

I'm guessing that first line is typo?

Plenty of things in politics is motivated by one thing politics... and religion. 2 things... politics and religion.

/end channeling of Monty Python: Spanish Inquisition skit

Where did I say that it was purely an Islamic issue?? Of course politics are motivated by religious views - religion helps to shape people's values, ideals and perceptions of right and wrong. Politics are also motivated by socioeconomic mores, family values, cultural beliefs, and the five o'clock news. That's not my point.

It's one of those things that's implied with how it's written. If politics and religion is linked world wide, why specify "in the Muslim world?"

What I said was that you can't simply state that the 9/11 attacks were either purely political (as ambodriver stated) or purely religious - the two cannot be separated. I did say that this is particularly true in Muslim society, where governments are not only effected, but built upon a single religion, Islam. The Ayatollah is a supreme religious leader first and foremost, as are the royal families in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Oman. And we can't forget the Taliban. This is not a bias against Islam or Muslims, it's a statement of fact based on study of the religion, the region and first-hand observation of both.

Agreed.

Nowhere did I say that other religions aren't also abused or manipulated or that religion does not impact government elsewhere (including the US). That would be an ignorant blanket remark and I shy away from those. Perhaps you should do the same?

edited for clarity

Unfortunately, the entire issue with the thread topic is people thinking that only Islam can be abused or manipulated.

[maverick56]

It's one of those things that's implied with how it's written. If politics and religion is linked world wide, why specify "in the Muslim world?"

Because that's the context of this thread and the statement which I was responding to.

Unfortunately, the entire issue with the thread topic is people thinking that only Islam can be abused or manipulated.

I haven't seen that. Actually, quite a few posts have acquiesced to the Catholic church, Christianity etc having been misused in various situations and times in history. Things keep coming back to Islam, however, because it's the entire starting point of the thread and the circumstances and history making up the news story behind it.

[celticcare]

*sits on the deck, looking out at the pool and sipping on a beer, looks to the sky and hears the northern hemisphere folks bickering and yelling*

Oh thank god/allah/mother earth/the aliens.... that I live in New Zealand, no issues here

Scotty

[JPINFV]

I haven't seen that. Actually, quite a few posts have acquiesced to the Catholic church, Christianity etc having been misused in various situations and times in history. Things keep coming back to Islam, however, because it's the entire starting point of the thread and the circumstances and history making up the news story behind it.

Most of the Christianity/Catholicism posts have been mine, yet the people against a mosque at Ground Zero aren't against a church within 1000 feet of a school or playground.

[maverick56]

Most of the Christianity/Catholicism posts have been mine, yet the people against a mosque at Ground Zero aren't against a church within 1000 feet of a school or playground.

Guess I have a hard time drawing that parallel.