Mosque at Ground Zero is a "Slap in the Face"

[emtannie]

daedalus,

I am addressing you because of your comments, however this is for all who want to drag the bible into this.

The Bible is a historical document. It was written partly from dreams, partly from eyewitness accounts, partly plagerised (generally accepted of the gospels). There are also more books of the bible that are not included.

Many of the laws that were taught in the Old Testement are still enforced in some countries. An eye for an eye is the first that comes to mind. Many of our laws are based on the 10 Commandments. However, what you need to consider is that the bible, as a document, was written for the Israelite people 2000+ years ago.

Fundamentalist christians believe, for example, that God created the world in 7 literal days. Are they right or wrong? The Bible says that when Noah built the Ark it rained for 40 days & 40 nights, but Noah lived to be hundreds of years old, so how long did it rain for? (At the time of Christ it is believed the average lifespan was 30-40 for a male).

Literal interperitations are at your peril.

In the New Testament Jesus endorsed many of the Old Testament laws, as well as explaining some & modifying others to suit. The problem we have now is that after 2000 years, there have been many 'scholars' who have added their twists & interperetations that have been accepted as fact.

A Devils advocate question is to ask why is Christianity the right religion to follow. It is also right not to label all muslims as terrorists, as it is not right to say all christians are good, loving, wholesome people.(Jim & Tammy Bakker come to mind, although he loved prostitutes & was just trying to spread the gospel to them )

This proposal is a couple of blocks from the site. I don't see the problem. Would the same be said if it was a Pentecostal church that wanted to build right next door, how about a Hindu temple, or even the Church of Scientology? I am sure those religions had representatives who lost their lives that day as well. I believe there should be a non denominational chapel for people of all religions built on or near the site for those who survived & their families, as well as the families of those who lost loved ones to reflect of what happenned & to move forward.

Quakefire to ban any religion will have the samme effect as trying to ban alcohol, ask the communists. Many of the churches had more sucess in increasing membership in those countries that banned their right to worship than anywhere else. Prohibition doesnt work.

What happened on that fateful day was the result of extremists. Extreemists who had been brainwashed. What does not get reported is the fact that there are millions of muslims in the world who seek peace. They do not condone terrorism. The do not condone the actions of the extreemists. Acceptance is the key.

Is this being built in the wrong place. Who knows. I will ask though, if you think it is, then how far away is an acceptable distance & should that apply to all churches?

I love you Phil...

I was trying to come up with a response to daedalus that wouldn't sidetrack this thread into a discussion of Old vs New testament theology, and why Christians believe what they do. This thread isn't about that. One of the points I was trying to make, and have obviously done a very poor job, is that there is a difference between tolerance and being walked all over, and a difference between forgiving a wrong and just ignoring it and allowing it to continue.

I don't know if there are other religious buildings on the Ground Zero site. I think it should be straight forward to zone all properties within a certain radios of the site to be commercial and non-denominational. How close is too close? I think any facilties within sight of Ground Zero should be non-denominational.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I love you Phil...

I was trying to come up with a response to daedalus that wouldn't sidetrack this thread into a discussion of Old vs New testament theology, and why Christians believe what they do. This thread isn't about that. One of the points I was trying to make, and have obviously done a very poor job, is that there is a difference between tolerance and being walked all over, and a difference between forgiving a wrong and just ignoring it and allowing it to continue.

I don't know if there are other religious buildings on the Ground Zero site. I think it should be straight forward to zone all properties within a certain radios of the site to be commercial and non-denominational. How close is too close? I think any facilties within sight of Ground Zero should be non-denominational.

Let's also not forget that there were muslims that lost their lives that day who worked in the twin towers. If we allow a christian church to be built near there then why are we against allowing a mosque to be built. (I never said I agreed with allowing the mosque to be built - I know many of your all reasons) But to allow one religion over the other is just WRONG, no matter how offensive that building will be to those who lost their lives on 09/11

I do not believe there are any religious buildings on the ground zero site, I could be wrong, I don't live in NYC. But to exclude a mosque we need to exclude all religious buildings.

The alternative is to make it a all encompassing religious area - Let's say Each religion who lost people gets to have a room in the new building.

But then who gets a room on the ground floor, who gets a room in the front or back. Will they all be the same size or is it based on the number of accepted believers as to what size the room is.

Does the christian groups get their own room, a baptist room, pentecostal room, catholic room, nazarene room, methodist room.

Do the Islamists get one room for non-extremists and one for extremists

What about the hindus, the irdus, the native americans, the satanists, the wiccans etc

Mormons, RLDS'rs.

Where do we draw the line

To have a single religion singled out to get their own building on ground zero or near it is absurd.

Besides I think we still have property rights and damnit, if you I own the property and it's zoned for what I am wanting to build then to hell with you all to try to keep me from building what I want. If I want to build Whit's End (adventures in odyssey plug) or build a porn shop or a shop to celebrate my basset hound brandy, I will do so probably much to someone's chagrin out there.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Ruffems

[HERBIE1]

Let's also not forget that there were muslims that lost their lives that day who worked in the twin towers. If we allow a christian church to be built near there then why are we against allowing a mosque to be built. (I never said I agreed with allowing the mosque to be built - I know many of your all reasons) But to allow one religion over the other is just WRONG, no matter how offensive that building will be to those who lost their lives on 09/11

I do not believe there are any religious buildings on the ground zero site, I could be wrong, I don't live in NYC. But to exclude a mosque we need to exclude all religious buildings.

The alternative is to make it a all encompassing religious area - Let's say Each religion who lost people gets to have a room in the new building.

But then who gets a room on the ground floor, who gets a room in the front or back. Will they all be the same size or is it based on the number of accepted believers as to what size the room is.

Does the christian groups get their own room, a baptist room, pentecostal room, catholic room, nazarene room, methodist room.

Do the Islamists get one room for non-extremists and one for extremists

What about the hindus, the irdus, the native americans, the satanists, the wiccans etc

Mormons, RLDS'rs.

Where do we draw the line

To have a single religion singled out to get their own building on ground zero or near it is absurd.

Besides I think we still have property rights and damnit, if you I own the property and it's zoned for what I am wanting to build then to hell with you all to try to keep me from building what I want. If I want to build Whit's End (adventures in odyssey plug) or build a porn shop or a shop to celebrate my basset hound brandy, I will do so probably much to someone's chagrin out there.

Well, if the Druids suddenly decide they will become fanatical and suicidal and take down a couple skyscrapers, then I'll be first in line to tell them they cannot erect a shrine(a tree, a rock, or whatever they worship at). Until then, I will object to an Arab group wanting to build a shrine at Ground Zero.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Well, if the Druids suddenly decide they will become fanatical and suicidal and take down a couple skyscrapers, then I'll be first in line to tell them they cannot erect a shrine(a tree, a rock, or whatever they worship at). Until then, I will object to an Arab group wanting to build a shrine at Ground Zero.

I forgot about the Druids, I also forgot about the templars.

But seriously - I do not agree with it but it is their property to do with what they please. If they want to build a mosque then I say let them. When we start to restrict property rights then we get on a slippery slope not unlike that pesky imminent domain.

But We have become the appeasement nation and we can't offend any one. We also must apologize for everything that has happened in the world because it's all our fault.

If I had the vote, and could change the zoning law at that area to preclude this I would but alas, I don't have the vote.

Let's all remember here, when we start restricting the freedoms that we are guaranteed by the constitution that is a slippery slope that I don't want to try to climb. They are easy to give away and impossible to get back.

[crotchitymedic1986]

Not all muslims are terrorists ! BUT ALL TERRORISTS ARE MUSLIMS !

[HERBIE1]

I forgot about the Druids, I also forgot about the templars.

But seriously - I do not agree with it but it is their property to do with what they please. If they want to build a mosque then I say let them. When we start to restrict property rights then we get on a slippery slope not unlike that pesky imminent domain.

But We have become the appeasement nation and we can't offend any one. We also must apologize for everything that has happened in the world because it's all our fault.

If I had the vote, and could change the zoning law at that area to preclude this I would but alas, I don't have the vote.

Let's all remember here, when we start restricting the freedoms that we are guaranteed by the constitution that is a slippery slope that I don't want to try to climb. They are easy to give away and impossible to get back.

Of course it's LEGAL for them to build a mosque there. If this group cannot see the problems associated with building a mosque near the WTC site, then I honestly think this has NOTHING to do with promoting understanding and honoring the victims of that day.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Not all muslims are terrorists ! BUT ALL TERRORISTS ARE MUSLIMS !

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG AGAIN

Not all terrorists are muslim. That was the dumbest statement of all in this thread.

[crotchitymedic1986]

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG AGAIN

Not all terrorists are muslim. That was the dumbest statement of all in this thread.

Really, please correct me; how many terrorists attacks can you name since 2000 that were not conducted by Muslims ? But to make you happy, I will edit my original response: Since Timothy McVeigh, all terrorists have been muslims.

Really, please correct me; how many terrorists attacks can you name since 2000 that were not conducted by Muslims ? But to make you happy, I will edit my original response: Since Timothy McVeigh, all terrorists have been muslims.

Here is a list of recent attacks, tell me how many were not conducted by Muslims:

1995

April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)

Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996

June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998

Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000

Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001

Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

2002

June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

2003 1

May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

2004

May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.

June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.

Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.

2005

Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.

2006

Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.

2007

Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.

Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.

2008

May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.

June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.

June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.

July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.

Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.

Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.

Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.

2009

Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.

April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.

Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.

Same list, stated a differnt way:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884893.html

Edited June 8, 2010 by crotchitymedic1986

[HERBIE1]

Really, please correct me; how many terrorists attacks can you name since 2000 that were not conducted by Muslims ? But to make you happy, I will edit my original response: Since Timothy McVeigh, all terrorists have been muslims.

Here is a list of recent attacks, tell me how many were not conducted by Muslims:

1995

April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)

Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996

June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998

Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000

Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001

Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

2002

June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

2003 1

May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

2004

May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.

June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.

Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.

2005

Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.

2006

Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.

2007

Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.

Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.

2008

May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.

June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.

June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.

July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.

Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.

Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.

Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.

2009

Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.

April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.

Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.

Same list, stated a differnt way:

http://www.infopleas...a/A0884893.html

First, I happen to agree with you on this- BUT.

Based on a post you made in another thread about profiling, do you not see any hypocrisy here? In the American SW, there is a HUGE Hispanic population. Depending on the area, and proximity to the border, you may have a hard time finding people who are NOT of Hispanic origin. So, comparing this with the idea of DWB, how can you offer 2 contradictory opinions on this?

[Just Plain Ruff]

Crotchity, there have been many incidents of terrorism in the world that have not been carried out by Muslims.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/

this is pretty interesting and a direct counterpart to your argument.

You are not taking into account the other terrorist organizations such as separatist groups, right wing environmental groups.

The definition of a terrorist is one who uses violence or acts to strike terror in the citizenry. I couldn't find a good definition.

The clinic bombings, the abortion doctor killings, the environmental whack jobs that have burned countless houses and buildings to protest that those houses are not green enough.

The animal lab destruction.

The colombian rebels I do not believe are islamists but I'm not sure.

The attacks on muslim women and families in France and the riots in France a number of years ago all from non-muslim

The Europols conclusion is as follows:

Islamist terrorism is still perceived as being the biggest threat worldwide, despite the fact that the EU only faced one Islamist terrorist attack in 2008. This bomb attack took place in the UK…Separatist terrorism remains the terrorism area which affects the EU most. This includes Basque separatist terrorism in Spain and France, and Corsican terrorism in France…Past contacts between ETA and the FARC illustrate the fact that also separatist terrorist organizations seek cooperation partners outside the EU on the basis of common interests. In the UK, dissident Irish republican groups, principally the RIRA and the CIRA, and other paramilitary groups may continue to engage in crime and violence.

More from the report

Perception is not reality. Due to the right wing’s influence and propaganda, people mistakenly think that Islamic terrorism is the greatest threat to the Western world. It is even a commonly held belief that Islamic terrorism poses an existential threat–that the very survival of the Western world is at stake. Of course, the reality is that there are other groups that engage in terrorism on a much larger scale, yet these terrorist incidents are minimized. Acts of terrorism committed by Muslims are purposefully sensationalized and focused upon, culminating in the idea that “(nearly) all terrorists are Muslims.”

Terrorism from Islamic extremists is certainly a cause for concern, but it need not be an issue that creates mass hysteria. Nor should it be allowed to be such a critical issue that we are willing to sacrifice our ideals or civil rights for fear of it. Neither should we be reduced to a status of absolute sissitude. We have analyzed data from America and Europe (a good portion of the entire Western world), and the threat from Islamic terrorism is much more minimal than commonly assumed; in the U.S., it accounts for 6% of terrorist attacks, and in Europe not even half of a percent.

It is only through sensationalism and fear mongering that the topic of Islamic terrorism is allowed to be used to demonize a religious community that happens to be a minority in the West. When confronted by such lunacy, we ought to respond with the facts and the truth

We tend to focus on what gets the most news. If it's big and nasty then yeah it gets more news but I can tell you that the doctors who were targeted on abortion activists web sites and their addresses were given out and bounties were put on their heads I can tell you that to them, that extremist group was a terrorist group.

Let's also not forget Ted Kazynsky (remember him) Let's also not forget the anthrax powder people who sent the white powder to the government offices as well as to post offices. You can't tell me that those people targeted were not terrified for their lives when they opened a package and it had white powder in it.

So to say that all terrorists are Muslim is not a valid statement and in fact contributes to the fear that we all have.