Oklahoma Highway Patrol and Paramedic Confrontation

[FireMedic65]

The officer is a liar, and hiding behind his badge as an excuse. The DA already let him off which is crap to begin with. As for violating HIPAA, he did no such thing.

[Lone Star]

Before the dashcam video was released, the trooper stated that as he passed the ambulance, the driver stuck his left hand out the window and flipped him off. Now he states that as the ambulance passed him (as the trooper was going the other way), thats when the driver flipped him off. Amazingly enough, I've not been able to see the driver of the ambulance extend his hand outside of the vehicle.

Now that the video has been released, the trooper claims that no one told him about having a patient on board. The video CLEARLY shows Paramedic White opening the rear door, stepping down from the truck, and informing the trooper that there WAS a patient on board.

With the release of the video, it shows that Maurice White DID in fact, abandon his patient. By stepping out of the truck and closing the door, he terminated care of the patient at that point. In MI and GA, the termination of patient care without transferring patient care to someone of equal or higher licensure constitutes ABANDONMENT. By him stepping out of the vehicle and closing the door (whether for patient privacy, confidentiality or modesty), he effectively terminated patient care at that point. With the 'help' of the state trooper, he effectively left that patient unattended.

West's Encyclopedia of American Law defines abandonment as it applies here as:

Abandonment of a patient, in medicine, occurs when a health care professional (usually a physician, nurse, dentist or paramedic) has already begun emergency treatment of a patient and then suddenly walks away while the patient is still in need, without securing the services of an adequate substitute or giving the patient adequate opportunity to find one. It is a crime in many countries and can result in the loss of one's license to practice. Also, because of the public policy in favor of keeping people alive, the professional cannot defend himself or herself by pointing to the patient's inability to pay for services; this opens the medical professional to the possibility of exposure to malpractice liability beyond one's insurance coverage.

http://www.answers.com/topic/abandonment

Abandonment is sometimes defined as the unilateral termination of the provider/patient relationship at a time when continuing care is still needed. It is a form of negligence that involves termination of care without the patient’s consent. To prove abandonment, a plaintiff must show that a patient needs care — that a medical provider has entered into a relationship to provide care to that patient, and then either stops providing care or transfers care to a person of lesser training when the patient needs the higher level of training.

http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/colu...bandonment.html

As far as the trooper committing a HIPAA violation, at no time did the trooper attempt to become involved in the patients care, or inquire to her condition or illness. Further, (at least as far as the video footage is concerned), the trooper didn't discuss the patients illness/condition with anyone that was not involved with her care. (Hell, he didn't even discuss her illness/condition with those that WERE involved with her care!)

As far as the District Attorney not filing charges on the trooper, I personally think he 'screwed the pooch' on that one! The trooper was clearly the agressor, and laid hands on Mr. White while he was in the performance of his duties as a paramedic.

[Dustdevil]

You are assuming that the medic was providing care in the first place.

You've been on an ambulance long enough to know that ninety percent of the time you're doing nothing more than staring at them all the way to the hospital. That being the case, there can be no abandonment if no care was being given to interrupt.

Abandonment can also be implied if transportation is ceased. Transportation is part of your fiduciary duty, just like medical care is, and can be interpreted as care. However, the medic in this case is not the one who terminated the transportation. In fact, he left the ambulance in an attempt to stop the interference with that transportation.

Given the fact that he left the ambulance to secure the continuance of the patient's transportation -- and assuming he was not abandoning active care, like CPR or something -- there is no abandonment. ER nurses are not required to sit at each patient's bedside every moment. Neither are EMTs or medics. And any belief otherwise is based upon the simplistic basics they feed you in EMT school because 120 hours isn't long enough to teach you law. The real world of law says something completely different.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Dustdevil

[Happiness]

Well all I can say is that I just witnessed "Team work at its best"

[JPINFV]

With the release of the video, it shows that Maurice White DID in fact, abandon his patient. By stepping out of the truck and closing the door, he terminated care of the patient at that point. In MI and GA, the termination of patient care without transferring patient care to someone of equal or higher licensure constitutes ABANDONMENT. By him stepping out of the vehicle and closing the door (whether for patient privacy, confidentiality or modesty), he effectively terminated patient care at that point. With the 'help' of the state trooper, he effectively left that patient unattended.

Then why is it not abandonment when said patients are left alone on a gurney in the ER while the nurses and physicians attend to other patients?

[Lone Star]

Then why is it not abandonment when said patients are left alone on a gurney in the ER while the nurses and physicians attend to other patients?

Because the patient's care has been transferred over to the receiving facility, (usually to a nurse, who's license is higher than a medic). This is why we get signatures as proof of the transfer of care. What happens after that takes place is no longer on our (EMS's) heads.

As far as 'law in the real world', it's funny that the two places I've listed in my last post seem to corroborate my point.....

Edited June 15, 2009 by Lone Star

[Dustdevil]

Because the patient's care has been transferred over to the receiving facility, (usually to a nurse, who's license is higher than a medic).

Incorrect. The facility isn't responsible for the patient anymore than your ambulance is. The provider is the one who bears responsibility. So again, if the law required you to maintain constant presence at the patient's side, that would also apply to doctors and nurses. It does not. And there is not a separate law for EMTs and nurses. It's the same law. The reason we are anal about it in EMS is because most EMTs are too stupid to comprehend the finer points of the law even if we had time to explain it to them. Therefore, we go with the KISS principle.

As far as 'law in the real world', it's funny that the two places I've listed in my last post seem to corroborate my point.....

Did you actually read those links? Neither of them corroborate your point. I've personally spoken with the author of that JEMS article on this very topic, and her opinion does not match yours. Neither does the opinion of the probably half a dozen other EMS attorneys I have discussed it with over the years. This very same discussion is currently going on at the Texas EMS listserver, and the two EMS attorneys there disagree with you too.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Dustdevil

[JPINFV]

Because the patient's care has been transferred over to the receiving facility, (usually to a nurse, who's license is higher than a medic). This is why we get signatures as proof of the transfer of care. What happens after that takes place is no longer on our (EMS's) heads.

Oh, so the hospital definition of abandonment and the EMS definition is different? I've always wondered what it was that made ambulances so dangerous that any patient put into one all of a sudden go to the verge of death for the sole period of time that they are in the ambulance. I wonder why we use these moving death machines?

[chbare]

In addition, part two of the JEMS article is here: http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/colu...t_Part_Two.html

Some of the concepts of this case are discussed in the said article.

I think it is a bit presumptuous to say definitively that the PM in question is guilty of abandonment. Clearly, many factors come into play, and it is not as cut and dry as he left the back of the ambulance. From what I read, the PM initially thought there was a potentially critical patient in the police car, and stated this as his reason for leaving the back of the ambulance. So, he made a judgment call.

Without knowing his agencies policy or OK EMS policy in addition to specific case law that applies to this scenario, I am not comfortable concluding that abandonment occurred.

Take care,

chbare.

Edited June 16, 2009 by chbare

[Chief1C]

It's not like the patient was alone in the back..