Young ride alongs and EMT's

[UMSTUDENT]

Maryland, as an entire state, allows EMTs to become certified and act as primary providers at the age of 16. So, if you're looking for a state that allows it to be done, there you go.

I think there is also a common misunderstanding of what "age of consent" truly means. For the purposes of EMS, we are primarily talking about where liability rest. In most situations, an EMS provider works under the medical license of his/her medical director, and as such, the medical director assumes the shared liability of the provider. In states like Maryland, the parent signs an affiliation form that allows that person to function as an EMS provider. This effectively waves the liability of the state should that person be hurt while performing his/her job. I doubt it really has much to do with liability in regards to a lawsuit in the case of malpractice.

It is important to remember how insulated an EMS provider is from personal liability in many cases. I would believe very few EMS providers have ever been placed on a stand in a civil case against themselves. Someone's insurance ussually ponys up before it gets that far. EMS provider operates under several layers of financial protection, which include, but are not limited to, the medical liability insurance of his jurisdictional and state medical director. This essentially affords him liability protection by the state should he "mess-up" doing otherwise normal duties. Gross negligence is a different story, and in almost every circumstance, usually borders on criminal. All of this of course assumes you are functioning in the capacity of an EMT, while on the job or volunteering. Our state also has fairly insulating Good Samaritan Laws to my understanding.

Much of EMS law is based in good faith. It generally assumes that the person signing the document believes it to be true. I think it is important to truly understand an individual's state laws before you start harassing them regarding "age of consent." It is fairly easy for a legislative body to write in a clause that emancipates an individual in certain circumstances.

[Michael]

No, I think I mis-read your question to begin with :oops:

My original answer was under the thought that by non-practitioner, you mean untrained rider. Am I now correct in assuming that non-practitioner includes untrained riders and EMTs alike? Sorry about the confusion!

How are you at reading DNRs? 'Cause soon I'm going to need one. :wink:

By "non-practitioner" I meant someone who is not practicing, that is, not treating patients, but (presumably) observing in an official capacity, as distinguished from a bystander who happens to be on scene. By "non-practitioner" I meant the subject of this thread, the object of your petition.

[PatrickW]

The post I quoted said nothing about the parents signing the confidentiality waiver. It mentioned maintaining patient privacy, yes. But not who was ultimately responsible.

And if the parent is the one ultimately responsible, where is the protection for patient privacy? The person legally responsible won't even be on the call. The minor could care less as there will be no legal action taken against him/her. Would you want to be the patient in a situation where the people walking through your door aren't legally responsible for maintaining your privacy?

Actually, the post you quoted does indeed have my comment about the parents signing, but I screwed the formatting up so badly that you'd have to be looking specifically for it in quoted text. Sorry!

The protection is the same as any civil matter, as far as I know. It's not a new idea and it doesn't give minors the right to go do whatever they want. Obviously IANAL but if breach of patient confidentiality is a criminal offense I believe minors can be held responsible.

[PatrickW]

How are you at reading DNRs? 'Cause soon I'm going to need one. :wink:

By "non-practitioner" I meant someone who is not practicing, that is, not treating patients, but (presumably) observing in an official capacity, as distinguished from a bystander who happens to be on scene. By "non-practitioner" I meant the subject of this thread, the object of your petition.

So much for that whole "thinking clearly" thing, huh?

I'll stick with 18. While I still believe any non-practitioner should leave as a courtesy if asked by a patient, there are times when this wouldn't be ideal (mass casualty incident, employee with EMS but not a care provider, medic student, etc), for the same reasons I listed before (age of majority, age to become EMT here).

[Coop]

Interesting.

We don't have an Explorer program or anything like that, but if we DID, I think I might be a little wary of responding to calls with a minor on-board.

From the other side of the littler, I can say this: I've been transported as a Class I patient, and there was an Explorer on the bus. Kid was seventeen. I've got to admit, his presence didn't phase me either way: I was too worried about losing my hand (I'd really screwed it up).

Best,

--Coop

[Michael]

So much for that whole "thinking clearly" thing, huh?

I'll stick with 18. While I still believe any non-practitioner should leave as a courtesy if asked by a patient, there are times when this wouldn't be ideal (mass casualty incident, employee with EMS but not a care provider, medic student, etc), for the same reasons I listed before (age of majority, age to become EMT here).

Patrick, what have you been arguing for minors to be allowed to do?

[paramedicmike]

I think you could find many adults in agreement with the "minors should be allowed to ride-along/drive/drink" arguments if you tried. Hell, there are obviously adults in the US in favor of the first two as they must have allowed it in the first place. There are adults in other countries that pass low drinking age laws as well. That doesn't make it right, but they're there. Give minors some credit, they are allowed to judge themselves just as much as anyone else can. There are 16 year olds that can drive better/handle EMS better/drink more responsibly than 25 year olds. Don't put so much credit in age as a way of judging someone.

You missed the point of what I was saying.

The point is you are not entirely capable of determining what you are mature enough/ready to handle. That needs to come from someone else who is, preferably, non-biased in the assessment. Age needs to be a requirement in that consideration. It's part of the larger picture. But the younger you are, the larger a role it plays in that determination.

UMStudent:

I knew Maryland allowed it. I used to live and work in MD. I've seen dozens of 16 year old wanna be EMTs come through. All of them argued they could handle it. None of them could.

Maryland isn't a bad place to work in EMS. But it has it's problems just like every other system out there. And one of their big ones is allowing minors to hold such a large position of responsibility.

-be safe.

[Timmy]

At the risk of starting WW3...

EMS cadets/explores/juniors or whatever you call them, are out there. There’s not much we can do about it. Every organisation is different. The organisation I'm with has over 2000 cadets Australia wide. I am a cadet myself and don’t see any problem with it. But hey that’s only a 16 year olds opinion.

[Ridryder 911]

Couple of things, definitely not to discredit you UMstudent, you have only have the theory at this time, not the pratical aspect and application of medicine and health care administration yet. Trust me, when you do become a physician I doubt you will want to work for a lower middle income position instead of the normal salary the physician makes in comparision. Please repost, when you are through residency and then tell me how physician's should not be making so much .. I'll be glad to hear, your views on how we can reduce health care costs.

True, Basic EMT really is not much more than 1'st aid, and the procedures that are allowed are usually harmless (there is a reason for this) but, again we are talking about critical thinking process, as well as maturity to be able to receive and interpret cognitively. The exposure of tragic events cannot be screened for ride alongs, for basic to called upon, etc..They are called Emergency Medical Technicians for a reason, unfortunately we in the profession have allowed the dilution to occur, which is a shame for the patients and EMS system in general. By allowing a further degredation of the profession is not going to help it.

Second, since we cannot promise no exclusion from harmful exposure to exposures to potential psychological, physical harm, with such events can cause possible long term events, we must and should limit minors exposure to such. Yes, those are called impressionable years for a reason. Why ride to see the job if one cannot truly see the job in action?

Now, do you see people shadowing other medical careers... not really. I have seen students (already enrolled in an approved program) to follow lab, x-ray, etc. Sorry, there is a reason physicians do not have "wanna-be" doc's to follow them around, most patients do not want to be exposed during a pelvic or rectal. The patient does have the right, on whom, what, and on treatment.

Shame on the physician for not respecting the profession any more than that. As well, anyone that allows juveniles to perform treatment, must be apathetic to the well being of the patient and provider both. I bet his/her malpractice insurance and attorney dreads the day as well. Again, there is a reason for the age requirement. Cognitive and critical thinking skills have scientifically been demonstrated not to develop until the past of age of 21. Sorry, just scientific proof.

Ever wonder why Police officers, have to meet an age requirement? Sure I bet most youth could pass the gun range, the written test, but it is again the cognitive and critical thinking skills, that mean life or death, as well as the psychological maturity. Similar what is required in EMS. Doe one have to shadow, FBI agents, surgeons, nuclear physicist, space engineering to go or obtain interest in a profession.... no !

To summarize, this is a profession, not a game or week-end retreat. Unfortunately,the Basic EMT is the current entry level for this profession. Most professional services requires one to be at least 21 before application, so they have plenty of time to figure out what the job entitles from high school and even college.

Far as watching t.v, I was referring to documentaries and real life exposure such as Paramedics, Trauma in the ER, etc.. not dramatic parodies and sit-coms.

R/r 911

[EMS49393]

I'm glad my service doesn't allow these ride-alongs by minors. If they did, I'd require an additional $5.50/hr babysitting wages. I don't have time to worry about some kid that wants to see "what EMS is all about." I have a job to do. I have myself, a partner of legal age and lisensure, and my patient(s) to take care of. You can't legally vote and you have no business anywhere near a patient.