BushyFromOz Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Only in America do we even get to discuss this type of thing. We need to cherish that freedom. If we were in Mecca this discussion would be quickly stopped. And there it is again, apparently freedom and democracy only exist in the us of a. JP, give up dude, people here are not interested in anything but the popular view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPINFV Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 How many instances of terror attacks on innocent men, women, and children have been perpetrated by Christians in the last 50 years or so? Now, shall we list how many attacks Muslims have been responsible for in that same time period? Abortion clinic bombings (self explanatory). India: http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/tripura/terrorist_outfits/nlft.htm Northern Ireland (self explanatory). Romania: http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/what_new/data_whats_new/pdf/english/1.1_Roots_of_Romanian_Antisemitism.pdf Uganda: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/04/world/uganda-s-terror-crackdown-multiplies-the-suffering.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all ...and I'm being nice because I could use any terrorist attack by a Christian based on how you worded it. Muslims weren't behind Oklahoma Federal Building after all. Pretending something did not happen does not make it go away, nor does it make the acts any less egregious. Pretending something didn't happen and refusing to give into bigotry isn't the same thing. Read the requirements, ideals, and values in the Koran and tell me again about how Muslims feel about tolerance, and what they require of those who follow that religion. Read the Bible. There's plenty in there to justify terrorism. Leviticus 24 is a good one, stoning blasphemers. So while, no I haven't read the Koran, I have no doubt that there's plenty of terrible things it commands it followers to do, just like the Bible and Torah does for people of its book. As such, there are extremists who use those books to justify their terrorism and there's the majority who don't strictly follow those verses. BTW- bad example- Saudi Arabia follows Sharia law, which by definition is INTOLERANT. It mandates standards of behavior, morals, and makes criminal penalties for those who do not follow it. NO other religion dictates so much of someone's life. If you don't think the Bible sets for standards for behavior, morals, and criminal penalties, you obviously haven't read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akflightmedic Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Only in America do we even get to discuss this type of thing. We need to cherish that freedom. If we were in Mecca this discussion would be quickly stopped Sorry Ruff, this is ignorance pure and simple and is a great example of the majority of Americans unfortunately. This is called ethnocentric thought and is usually followed by ethnocentric behavior. Regardless of how our textbooks are skewed, we need to become better informed and rise above the limitations on free thought which is shoved upon us from Pre-K all the way through graduation. We are not the only country with freedom ringing loud and believe it or not, there are several other countries which manage it slightly better than what we do. Yes we are a large nation and many people aspire to come here and make it big due to "freedom" but we are not the only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Plain Ruff Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Ok, AK You have been there and I bow to your understanding but let me ask you this 15 Christians fly 4 planes into various buildings in Mecca. They kill 3500 or so people in doing so. Fast forward 9 years into the future and a Christian Group decides they are going to build a Cathedral or a Temple or some religious building 2 blocks away from the site of where those 3500 people died. They call it a cultural center but there is a place for christians to worship in this cultural center. You are telling me that this would be welcomed with open arms because they manage their freedom better? You are saying that this would be a welcome discussion in Mecca? If you can tell me that this cultural center would be welcomed then I'll not question you further but if you can't then I have to disagree with you calling my last post ignorant. You know me, I'm always open to being shown where I'm wrong. But I truly don't think that this discussion would be welcomed in Mecca. Maybe I am truly taking the american or US view point but I do try to see all sides of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akflightmedic Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 "Only in America do we even get to discuss this type of thing. We need to cherish that freedom."...Ruff Your quote above is what I called ignorant, especially the bold part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERBIE1 Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Abortion clinic bombings (self explanatory). India: http://www.satp.org/...utfits/nlft.htm Northern Ireland (self explanatory). Romania: http://www1.yadvashe...ntisemitism.pdf Uganda: http://www.nytimes.c...&pagewanted=all ...and I'm being nice because I could use any terrorist attack by a Christian based on how you worded it. Muslims weren't behind Oklahoma Federal Building after all. Pretending something didn't happen and refusing to give into bigotry isn't the same thing. Read the Bible. There's plenty in there to justify terrorism. Leviticus 24 is a good one, stoning blasphemers. So while, no I haven't read the Koran, I have no doubt that there's plenty of terrible things it commands it followers to do, just like the Bible and Torah does for people of its book. As such, there are extremists who use those books to justify their terrorism and there's the majority who don't strictly follow those verses. If you don't think the Bible sets for standards for behavior, morals, and criminal penalties, you obviously haven't read it. I will not do a quid pro quo here with examples of Muslim terror around the globe. Pick up any newspaper and see what has happened in the last 6 months in Gaza or Africa. The BIG difference between the Bible and the Koran and Sharia law (Which this NYC Iman is trying to expand here) is if you do not agree with the bible, NOBODY is forcing you to accept it. Sharia law dictates your entire life, and failure to comply results in severe penalties in the here and now, not in the afterlife. The bible is filled with parables but few accept it verbatum. The ones who do take the bible literally are seen to be extreme, radical nut jobs and nobody takes them seriously. Same with the radical Muslims, except now we are not only supposed to be tolerant of them, but allow them to build a monument to their intolerance 2 blocks from Ground zero. No way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akflightmedic Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 The BIG difference between the Bible and the Koran and Sharia law (Which this NYC Iman is trying to expand here) is if you do not agree with the bible, NOBODY is forcing you to accept it. I have been forced to accept it every day in my country...the USA, land of the free. When I have to deal with people wishing to teach creationism in schools, when I see it on my money, when it is in my pledge, when I am sworn in to office or as a witness, when my president declares a holy war and makes multiple asinine statements about religion in general...Yes, I am forced to accept it every single day. "You are either with us or against us", there seems to be no happy middle ground when it comes to Allah or Christ...amazing how the same shit continues for thousands of years over the battle of who has the better sky daddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Plain Ruff Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 "Only in America do we even get to discuss this type of thing. We need to cherish that freedom."...Ruff Your quote above is what I called ignorant, especially the bold part. Fair enough AK, you are right, the Only in America was an ignorant statement but not one that I meant to make. I do not know about many other cultures except what I read, watch on the news outlets and hear about from others that I know. Consider that ignorant statement corrected for future reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERBIE1 Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 I have been forced to accept it every day in my country...the USA, land of the free. When I have to deal with people wishing to teach creationism in schools, when I see it on my money, when it is in my pledge, when I am sworn in to office or as a witness, when my president declares a holy war and makes multiple asinine statements about religion in general...Yes, I am forced to accept it every single day. "You are either with us or against us", there seems to be no happy middle ground when it comes to Allah or Christ...amazing how the same shit continues for thousands of years over the battle of who has the better sky daddy. Well, this country was founded on the belief that there is some type of deity. The framers believed it, but they did not mandate that everyone else believe in it. it was simply a frame of reference or starting point to propose their ideas. Nothing in our laws say we have to worship a "creator", that we will be punished if we do not accept that "creator", or that we need to follow a "creator's" laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akflightmedic Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Well, this country was founded on the belief that there is some type of deity. The framers believed it, but they did not mandate that everyone else believe in it. it was simply a frame of reference or starting point to propose their ideas. Nothing in our laws say we have to worship a "creator", that we will be punished if we do not accept that "creator", or that we need to follow a "creator's" laws. No the framers did not intend for any of it to be the way it is now...it is only due to the "extremism" of elected officials over the years that we have reshaped our society to conform/bend to certain christian influences. God in pledge and on money was not until the 1950s...so why are we shifting that way? Slowly but surely if we allow it to remain unchecked, we would be neck deep in a very similar society but ours would bow to christ instead of allah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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