chicagoambo Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 chicagoambo you are a muppet of the first order ... odd how everyone else on the left side of the pond bemoans the money that Nurses make over and above Ambulance staff, even those who have sold their arses to the dripstands ... odd how in all the other health jobs education = money and status odd how most of the rest of civilised world has either Helath Professional in their own right Paramedics (UK, Eire, Canada, Australia... even the Germans ) or Paramedics as Advanced practice Nurses (netherlands, Scandinavian countires) Sorry but here we are paid alot of $$$$ and nurses make alot less! we are probably paid in the top 3% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridryder 911 Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Sorry but here we are paid alot of $$$$ and nurses make alot less! we are probably paid in the top 3% It is a shame your not worth it, and just to show you what idiots there out there in city management! I guess the old saying money cannot buy everything! R/r 911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTNMANMEDIC Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Great Lord people, nothing can surpass a fine education. Experience in the field is mandatory and that is why we have preceptor programs. Anyone can go to school and learn the books but if they can't perform in the field they become desk jockeys, hopefully. I have precepted many Paramedics, both college edookated and from the trade schools and part time community colleges. If a person has it to perform in this field they have have it and that can not be book learned, taught or learned. My husband is a car mechanic and he is the "old man" of the garage. Where do all the tech. school graduates go to learn how to "really" work on cars ? Yea, he knows all the book learning and all the B.S. but if the kid out of school can't turn a wrench he aint worth the time the manufacturer is spending on him and he won't last. He can't produce and keep a "job" within the hours given to fix something. Look at the NFL, Yep the National Football League. Here comes a top prospect. Hiesman winner. All American. College Educated, played in the Rose Bowl, National Championship........ETC. He is selected number one in the draft. He does great in the training camp. He does great in the pre-season. First snap of the first regular season game and some never heard of defensive player puts his jock in his watch pocket. Can anyone here name me a Hiesman winner top pick in the NFL draft that is a household name because of what he has done in the "BIG LEAGUES". The best advice I could ever give anyone coming into this field begot educational level is watch that grey haired old man, woman, that does not get riled up over a call, Dept. politics.......etc. because with luck and the grace of God you will one day be him/her. Looking back at the original post. Is a college degree needed ? I can not honestly answer that question because I have seen "gifted" people enter this field, people with the minimum education and training that could out perform the highest educated person. We in EMS are indiviuals and no matter how hard we try and how high we set the standard someone comes along with the 'mojo" to make it all look easy and God bless them. Maybe we should be asking the question do our patients want for higher educated and higher trained personnel on every truck with a star of life sticker on it ? I have seen on this board that higher educated and higher conversation tend to become second to lower education and put downs often by those that the lower less experienced people to a second class status, it seems many folks forget where they came form, we did not all start off as "MASTERS OF EMS, PHd, BS, and SUPREME MASTER OF BULLCOCKINESS". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edogs334 Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 I voted in favor of requiring a mandatory minimum 2-year degree for all future paramedic candidates. In addition, I would also be in favor of requiring at least a year of liberal arts/science pre-reqs before starting the clinical year(s). These pre-reqs would include courses such as, Biology, Chemistry, a year of A&P, Microbiology, English, and Statistics. With all that said, I also think that current paramedics should not be mandated to advance the two year degree requirement- as long as they can still meet standard competency levels. I think it would only be fair not to require ALL current paramedics to advance to a 2-year A.S. degree- especially if they would have to do it on their own dime. As many people have said before me, EMS is at a critical choice-point- either advance to a more professional image/status or stay stagnant. I don't see how EMS as a profession can advance and gain more respect/credibility without requiring more education. Sure, paramedics can use any number of reasons to justify more pay and respect, but it is my opinion that the current power structure in health care (medicare especially) won't listen until EMS backs up all those other reasons with higher education requirements. If people in EMS had more education, wouldn't it be easier for people to see the proverbial "bigger picture" and take a more unified approach to solving common problems? It's my opinion that having more education makes it easier to think more objectively and systematically when trying to solve systemic problems similar to the ones EMS is grappling with. Sure, innate common sense cannot be taught in degree program. I've worked with plenty of providers who are aces at their profession; they only have their HS diplomas and a paramedic certificate. However, it seems as though a good number of these providers do not see beyond their own locality, their own system, and don't want to listen to other people's ways of doing things. Education (in many cases) tends to broaden people's horizons and gives them the tools to see beyond where they stand in the present moment. An interesting question to pose would be this: how did the fire service get so politically unified and powerful to the point at which they had no problem getting most of what they wanted? How did fire service unions such as the IAFF get so powerful? It doesn't seem like increasing the level of mandatory education was the answer that the fire service found. Or was it? Most firefighters I know have only a high school diploma. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think that the majority of firefighters have undergrad or graduate degrees. It seems as though the A.S. degree is the standard in fire science programs. However, an A.S. degree is certainly not mandatory for being hired by a FD (at least not here in New England). What kinds of degrees do people in the national fire service leadership have? I'd definitely be interested in finding out if the level of education that national fire service leaders possess has any correlation with the level of political/occupational success the fire service has experienced. Lastly, it wouldn't be fair if I didn't share my own educational credentials with all of you; you'd have a better idea of where I'm coming from. I've been an EMT-Basic for the past 6 years, and have 4 years of actual patient care experience (in private and college-based EMS services). EMS was something I got into at the end of high school, and I subsequently took a year off before college to work as an EMT for an ambulance service. I worked on an ambulance (and for my college's EMS service) for 2/3 of the four years I was in school. After graduating with a Bachelor's in psychology, and having the experiences I've had in EMS, I've been trying to decide which career path to take (because I decided I don't want to be a psychologist). I've been working as an ER Tech for the past year in a Level-1 trauma center, and that has made my "pendulum" swing (even more stronly than before) in the direction of nursing. I hate to say it, but given my experiences (on an ambulance and in the ER), nursing seems to be more intellectually stimulating than working as a rank-in-file paramedic for a private ambulance service. Unlike some of the people I worked with in the private ambulance sector, many of the nurses and physicians I work with love learning new things and equally love teaching junior staff (such as myself) the reasons behind pathophysiologies and the treatment of the same. A good number of my partners (NOT ALL) in the private sector of EMS didn't value learning and only wanted to do the bare minimum to get paid. This is why I currently don't want to pursue a paramedic certificate education. Maybe someone can convince me otherwise. Here are some links to articles by Dr. Brian Bledsoe on the subject of EMS pay/education; I thought they were right on point: (I'm sure a lot of you have already read them) http://www.jems.com/columnists/bledsoe/articles/102848/ http://www.jems.com/columnists/bledsoe/articles/13365/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBEMT Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 hate to say it, but given my experiences (on an ambulance and in the ER), nursing seems to be more intellectually stimulating than working as a rank-in-file paramedic for a private ambulance service. Unlike some of the people I worked with in the private ambulance sector, many of the nurses and physicians I work with love learning new things and equally love teaching junior staff (such as myself) the reasons behind pathophysiologies and the treatment of the same. A good number of my partners (NOT ALL) in the private sector of EMS didn't value learning and only wanted to do the bare minimum to get paid. This is why I currently don't want to pursue a paramedic certificate education. Maybe someone can convince me otherwise. There's more to EMS than private ambulance companies. There's even more to EMS than fire departments. Your location says Boston and you say you work at a Level 1. Bend the ear of a Boston EMS member sometime. See what they say. I apologize for the hijack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippyRN Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Great Lord people, nothing can surpass a fine education. Experience in the field is mandatory and that is why we have preceptor programs. 'field' experience should start before preceptorship UK (in fact all EU ) RNs have 2300 practice hours before they complete their pre-reg programme , our University Paramedic programmes follow a similar pattern Anyone can go to school and learn the books but if they can't perform in the field they become desk jockeys, hopefully. I have precepted many Paramedics, both college edookated and from the trade schools and part time community colleges. If a person has it to perform in this field they have have it and that can not be book learned, taught or learned. i'd agree with that statement Higher Education qualifications are the thingswhich will make profession stand on it;s own and not be subordinate to Medince , the main problem of ccourse being that many in the US consider all health professions to be subordinate to medicne becasue ofthe disproportionate power vesting in the admitting specialist by the crazy messed way the USA fails to provide healthcare to much of it;s population Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridryder 911 Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 Great Lord people, nothing can surpass a fine education. Experience in the field is mandatory and that is why we have preceptor programs. Anyone can go to school and learn the books but if they can't perform in the field they become desk jockeys, hopefully. Apparently not, we only have about a 64% pass rate on EMS exams from a book written at 6'th grade science level. Remember Basic EMT is just above 1'st aid. I have precepted many Paramedics, both college edookated and from the trade schools and part time community colleges. If a person has it to perform in this field they have have it and that can not be book learned, taught or learned. What are you talking about ? Have it or not.. this is not a John Wayne movie depicting courage.. yes, in some it occurs more natural than others. Some require more study and practice.. remember not even cardiologist are born, they are created! My husband is a car mechanic and he is the "old man" of the garage. Where do all the tech. school graduates go to learn how to "really" work on cars ? Yea, he knows all the book learning and all the B.S. but if the kid out of school can't turn a wrench he aint worth the time the manufacturer is spending on him and he won't last. He can't produce and keep a "job" within the hours given to fix something. If the mechanic does not know the parts of the car, he cannot repair it. You don't send a mechanic into a garage without knowing the parts, how the engine runs, understanding of combustion, fuel mixture, timing, etc.. before handing them a wrench. It does not matter how "well" he can turn that wrench if he does not know why or what he is doing. Skill and knowledge; should not be considered separately. Because one has an education, does not mean they cannot perform skills as well ! Like EMS skills they are acquired and fine tuned with experience. Skills is the easiest part to learn, even research has proven it does not take high mentality to perform skill levels, they are acquired with practice and reputation. Look at the NFL, Yep the National Football League. Here comes a top prospect. Hiesman winner. All American. College Educated, played in the Rose Bowl, National Championship........ETC. He is selected number one in the draft. He does great in the training camp. He does great in the pre-season. First snap of the first regular season game and some never heard of defensive player puts his jock in his watch pocket. Can anyone here name me a Hiesman winner top pick in the NFL draft that is a household name because of what he has done in the "BIG LEAGUES". Unfortunately, O.J. Simpson The best advice I could ever give anyone coming into this field begot educational level is watch that grey haired old man, woman, that does not get riled up over a call, Dept. politics.......etc. because with luck and the grace of God you will one day be him/her. I agree, experience and education is the key for sucessful knowledge. Anyone can improve on their level. This gray haired person watches newbies and still learns something new every day! I can not honestly answer that question because I have seen "gifted" people enter this field, people with the minimum education and training that could out perform the highest educated person. We in EMS are indiviuals and no matter how hard we try and how high we set the standard someone comes along with the 'mojo" to make it all look easy and God bless them. Depends on your definition of "outperforming them" You mean understanding what is wrong with the patient such as diagnosing or one that start an IV faster or performs tasks better? Most trauma surgeons are crappy at establishing peripheral IV's than the medics or nurses, but which one do I prefer to examine and treat me ? Maybe we should be asking the question do our patients want for higher educated and higher trained personnel on every truck with a star of life sticker on it ? Don't are patient's deserve the very best.. or should they only get what they can ? I have seen on this board that higher educated and higher conversation tend to become second to lower education and put downs often by those that the lower less experienced people to a second class status, it seems many folks forget where they came form, we did not all start off as "MASTERS OF EMS, PHd, BS, and SUPREME MASTER OF BULLCOCKINESS". Usually, it those that truly do not have any formal education or even understands general medicine and adult education that will make ludicrous statements. Again, just compare us to any other medical profession... seriously there is a reason they require one to learn about things before attempting to treat patients. Okay... my rant not directed to any specific person I have worked in the health care arena for several years, and it still amazes me that we are the only personal not required to have a at least a college level entry way and as well to fight to remain to uneducated. Why would anyone want to brag about their right to remain ignorant ? Is this just me or does this go past even the poorest logical mind of wanting to remain stupid ? (Remember ignorance is the lack of knowledge, stupidity is the ability to have the knowledge and refusing it) Can one imagine any other health profession having a debate that they do not need better and formal education ? Wow! Folks. EMS is not rocket science but we are responsible for people lives. We should have at least a profession that the text books are written above grade school level. Pretty pathetic ...and why would anyone disagree to make EMS at least the minimal of a two year program & to require one to know at least basic anatomy and have the ability to read and write above high school level ?.. Again, why and how could anyone be against being more knowledgable in their profession, especially emergency medicine ? Why would anyone want to withhold the profession from advancing and be able to provide better care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Anne Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 'Learn one, do one, teach one....' I, as well as many posters on this thread have made clear, do believe in a minimum of a 2yr assoc degree in Paramedicine. I'd like to see the EMT-B program in my area be upgraded to a college level program with pre-reqs of A&P I, Eng Comp 101, Math 110, 1st aid course, as well as a Health and Wellness course prior to being capable of enrolling in any EMT-B course. After this is accomplished, I'd 'wish'* for a 2yr minimum of exprience before interviewing for a spot in the Paramedic Program. Perhaps gaining the proper level of education combined with the experience (although 2yrs is a short) would better equip a person mentally as well as physically for their career in this field. Years of experience definitely improves one's standing from an educational aspect due to the simple fact that each and every patient/client you encounter is a learning experience. This cannot and should not be the only criteria for someone calling themselves 'professional'**. You have to have the basic fundamentals of medicine, quality class time to obtain all the required knowledge, and proper education/understanding to fully encompass and enjoy the career of being this special type of medical provider. In doing so, one can not only learn from past mistakes, but pass on their PROPER*** knowledge and understanding from years of education and experience to the Paramedics of tomorrow. * I use wish because it's something I strive for in my region **Professionalism is a proper understanding of all that encompasses you and your career, not 'street time in the ghetto' alone ***Ignorance only makes our progression stagnant in this field.....be humble, get a clue, or get another career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPINFV Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 ^ Just wondering, what level is Math 110? [100+ is upper division course work at my school] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoambo Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 It is a shame your not worth it, and just to show you what idiots there out there in city management! I guess the old saying money cannot buy everything! R/r 911 RN CCRN, CEN, CCEMT/P, NREMT/P CONTENT REMOVED - ADMIN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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