Is EMS definative care?

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

You don't think ETI is a 'definitve' treatment?

ACE844

No, it doesnt fix the problem, it bypasses a symptom.

At least according to the definations being thrown around thus far.

PRPG

[Scaramedic]

You don't think ETI is a 'definitve' treatment?

ACE844

No it's not definitive treatment. ETI would be supportive care in my opinion. Definitive care would be treating and fixing the underlying problem that caused the need for intubation.

Peace,

Marty

:joker:

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

Ok, so everyone seems to agree.

Definative care seems to be defined as care that "fixes" the problem. AZCEP defined what we do that could be termed as definative care.

Now, let me ask this. What does an ER do that is "definative care"?

BTW...im going somewhere with this....so bear with me

[Scaramedic]

Ok, so everyone seems to agree.

Definative care seems to be defined as care that "fixes" the problem. AZCEP defined what we do that could be termed as definative care.

Now, let me ask this. What does an ER do that is "definative care"?

BTW...im going somewhere with this....so bear with me

Set broken bones

Tell Aunt Pudy her hemorrhoids are not fatal

Manual Dis-impaction

Diagnose petty medical complaints, and send the patient home

Prescribe antibiotics

I think I know where your going with this, now that I realize how short the list is.

Peace,

Marty

:joker:

[Ace844]

No it's not definitive treatment. ETI would be supportive care in my opinion. Definitive care would be treating and fixing the underlying problem that caused the need for intubation.

Peace,

Marty

:joker:

I'm sure Ron Walls MD would disagree with you, without an ETI, in some instances your patient dies...That sounds pretty definitive to me. He even says so in his book. I don't have it handy, but as soon as I do, I'll post the info., or if "VS, or anyone else" does feel fre to post it.

ACE844

[Scaramedic]

I'm sure Ron Walls MD would disagree with you, without an ETI, in some instances your patient dies...That sounds pretty definitive to me. He even says so in his book. I don't have it handy, but as soon as I do, I'll post the info., or if "VS, or anyone else" does feel fre to post it.

ACE844

Definitive

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English diffinityf, from Middle French definitif, from Latin definitivus, from definitus

1 : serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation <a definitive victory>

Function: adjective

So you and Ron Walls, MD are just going to leave the patient on the vent for the rest of his life. Definitive is the final fix, not the care to keep the patient alive until that fix can happen.

I can intubate a head injury, but I have not fixed anything. I am only temporarily assuming airway/ventilatory control on a patient who needs further care to walk out of the hospital.

Peace,

Marty

:joker:

[Ace844]

Definitive

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English diffinityf, from Middle French definitif, from Latin definitivus, from definitus

1 : serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation <a definitive victory>

Function: adjective

So you and Ron Walls, MD are just going to leave the patient on the vent for the rest of his life. Definitive is the final fix, not the care to keep the patient alive until that fix can happen.

I can intubate a head injury, but I have not fixed anything. I am only temporarily assuming airway/ventilatory control on a patient who needs further care to walk out of the hospital.

Peace,

Marty

:joker:

Here are just 2 refrences of thousands of 'medical resources' which disagree with you as well...

[web:4773d4406c]http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/Internet/Anesthesiology-Elective/airway/trauma.cfm[/web:4773d4406c]

THE DEFINITIVE AIRWAY:

A definitive airway can be: an endotracheal tube, an nasotracheal tube, or a surgical airway (cricothroidotomy).

http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/96/1/67

Definitive airway control by endotracheal intubation (ETI) is standard of care in pre-hospital airway management. However, there are specific factors that may influence and complicate ETI. Conclusions. Despite various factors increasing the difficulties in managing the airway in the field, definitive airway control by ETI seems to be safe practice

Lastly, lets look at how a MEDICAL DICTIONARY DEFINES DEFINITIVE!!

[web:4773d4406c]http://www.mercksource.com/pp/us/cns/cns_hl_dorlands.jspzQzpgzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd_d_

04zPzhtm[/web:4773d4406c]

definitive (de·fin·i·tive) (de-fin´ĭ-tiv) 1. established with certainty. 2. in embryology, denoting acquisition of final differentiation or character. 3. in parasitology, denoting the host in which a parasite reaches the sexual stage.

Out here,

ACE844

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

I'm sure Ron Walls MD would disagree with you, without an ETI, in some instances your patient dies...

Some. Doesnt seem like a very definative word...

I like stirring the pot...hehe

[Ace844]

Some. Doesnt seem like a very definative word...

I like stirring the pot...hehe

"PRPG,"

Nice try with the 'pot stirring,'.... "SOME," taking into account the 'elective' group of entubations which were sure to be brought up next....Also, the term 'SOME,' in this instance was referring to the 'non-elective' entubation pt's..

Lastly, ETI, regardless of the 'when, and how,' it's applied when done so it is till considered 'Definitive' as a treatment modiality and 'definitive' in the sense in which it secures a pt's airway!!

Thanks,

ACE844

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

Set broken bones

Tell Aunt Pudy her hemorrhoids are not fatal

Manual Dis-impaction

Diagnose petty medical complaints, and send the patient home

Prescribe antibiotics

I think I know where your going with this, now that I realize how short the list is.

Peace,

Marty

:joker:

So if a small amount of what an ER does is definative care, and a small amount of what we do is "definative care", lets take a step back and cross threads a minute.

Relating this premise to scene times.

Many peoples arguements for shorter scene times was getting a patient to definative care. But...

...it seems that emergency rooms do quite a bit of what we do, just on a larger scale. Emergency rooms are for stabilization as well. So...

...it seems to me that from a clinical perspective, getting a patient to an emergency room doesnt necessarily get them to definative care.

So...

...why the rush? Can one accurately define a reason to rush through a call with a 10/20 scene time, when in reality, your simply taking them somewhere which has the same goal as you, and a list just as short of procedures which can be defined as "definative care"?

Thoughts?

PRPG