Medic's Assistant...

[etfink]

That's great if you have a bunch of firemen standing around to take care of the other EMT duties. If not, the EMT has a lot more to be concerned with.

My reply was aimed at urban EMS where you do have a lot of firemen standing around. However there is one fire medic with his clipboard and my partner actually performing interventions.

It's not education. It's training. Just like a dog, a horse, or a monkey. It takes all of two shifts to learn. Let's not make this into something it isn't.

Wow again if you tried really hard can you be just a little more demeaning? I never tried to make it out to be someting it's not. The point of standardized education/training is that you can expect that anybody that has compleated the program is capebale of performing certian skills at a certian level. Here is an example. When is started in the field I worked in a system with BLS ambos with firemedic riders. We had a chest pain paitent and I was in the back. The fire medic asked me to set up the 12 lead while he gained IV acesss. I had no idea how to and unlike a lot of people would I told him so. After he had IV access he set up the 12 lead and I watched and learned. If I had been to a Medic Assistant class and was certified the fire medicwould have known that I was capeable to start a 12 lead. This would lead to a faster strip and better patient care. Is this a bad thing?? Now IMHO I think this should be taught in basic school but its not. As a professional (beleive it or not some Basics are) I just want to see my profession elevated and as we seemed to all agree more training is how that will happen.

Uhhh... medic school is the very reason you don't need to learn this stuff on the job. Again, if you really want to learn it, it takes about two shifts to master it all. You don't need a training class for it.

Uhhh...my point was not that this would take the place of any medic training. Rather the more a medic student knows about ALS the better equiped he/she will be to:

1. Make an informed decision to persue an advanced cert.

2. Learn the material and understand it better while in school.

[fireflymedic]

We do a class similar to this for all our basics, but it's primarily to orient them to what they will see on an ALS truck and be able to help the medic more efficiently. At least they will be able to play gopher well and know what they are being asked for, even if they don't know how it works per say (though we do include that to a limited degree). Does it increase their ability to do things? Nope, they are still a basic. Does it make them a more efficient partner? You bet. They are able to spike a bag, help set up intubation kits, prepare monitors to attach to the patient, print EKG strips for us, and replace batteries. It gives them some exposure to the ALS world without the additional responsibility. I think it's a great thing for them, so long as they understand this does not increase their ability to do procedures, just simply to help out as needed. Yes, there's alot to do as a basic, but in my area, we are stretched for hands sometimes, especially in the more rural areas, and you may get several basics or another basic truck to back you up and one medic. The extra hands IF they know what to do are useful, otherwise, they are useless !

[Dustdevil]

As a professional (beleive it or not some Basics are) I just want to see my profession elevated and as we seemed to all agree more training is how that will happen.

Read around the board a little more and you will quickly learn that very, very few people here believe that. In fact, most of us agree that training is the reason this so-called profession needs elevating. Too much training, and not enough education. What you are suggesting is just more of the same. So long as we continue to do what we have always done, we will continue to get what we've always gotten. $hit.

Teaching such a thing as standard EMT training is absurd. Most EMT's never even go to work on an ambulance, much less a 911 EMS ambulance. If anything, they need more medical education, not more helper skills. They aren't even halfway adequately trained to do the things within their scope. Spending time on helper tasks when the probability of them ever using them are so low is simply ridiculous.

Not to mention, any EMT working an ALS service ought to be taking the initiative to learn such things on his own. I bet you learned it the first time you watched that medic do it. Anybody who requires an entire class over such mundane tasks is a total idiot and need to find a new job anyhow.

[etfink]

Not to mention, any EMT working an ALS service ought to be taking the initiative to learn such things on his own. I bet you learned it the first time you watched that medic do it. Anybody who requires an entire class over such mundane tasks is a total idiot and need to find a new job anyhow.

[csr]

Maybe if they paid better they would get more employees. I applied a month ago, was offered a EMT job. When I asked what I'd be making I was told, $7.18 an hour. No way in heck. That is sad. Burger shack employees are making more than that around here.

[Ridryder 911]

If we start requiring medics to have an education similar to a RN's in time, will we pay them a RN's wage?

Does this mean school teachers will start getting compensated to?.. There are many that have undergrad even grad, and PhD's that make similar wages as medics.

I agree, we should make more, and education definitely be part of the requirement, so should responsibility and increasing professionalism.

Be safe,

R/r 911

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

Does this mean school teachers will start getting compensated to?.. There are many that have undergrad even grad, and PhD's that make similar wages as medics.

I agree, we should make more, and education definitely be part of the requirement, so should responsibility and increasing professionalism.

Be safe,

R/r 911

But we must give, to get. Be a part of the solution by increasing your training (its not education yet) as well as furthering your scope of knowledge and outward professionalism as a representative of the job (it isnt a profession yet) to receive fiscal benefits.

[JPINFV]

Fair points. As a matter of fact prior to watching my medic on a call I asked him to show me on the first day. I agree that our system is lacking in education and it should be changed. It has probably been asked and answered before but how do you start to overhaul the system. If we move towards a system similar to Canada will the country be willing to pay a fair wage. If we start requiring medics to have an education simmilar to a RN's in time, will we pay them a RN's wage?

(in no particular order)

1. Lobby

2. Organize (as much as I have a distaste for unions in general)

3. Get an education and get into leadership (note, just as education and training are different, leadership and management are different. A manager may not be able to dictate hiring standards. A leader should)

4. Be prepared to take one for the team (would you rather, A. Make 30k/yr running only 911 or make twice that amount running 911/interfacility combined. You've got to work to play, and, like it or not, interfacility is where the money is. Maybe 3rd government agencies should embrace it and reinvest the money into higher pay, more education, etc)

5. Become involved with PR (the FD and PD didn't become highly recognized overnight. EMS won't either. This goes with 1. We do need a catch phrase, though. If the PD is America's finest, and the FD is America's bravest, are those involved in EMS then America's Smartest?). Make your community know WHAT you do and ensure that they believe that you are worth every penny, plus some, that their tax dollars go to.

6. Fight Fires (hey, if the FFs can become crappy medics, can medics become crappy FFs for the extra money that being a FD would bring the system? We could send an ambulance to all fire calls just for shits and giggles.) /sarcasm.

7. Form partnerships with other local resources. (Maybe instead of having a paramedic teach A/P, have it taught at the local university There should already be a biochem, human physiology, human anatomy, neruobio, chem, physics classes at the university. Better yet, have the university run the program and have it become a degree-granting program)

[Dustdevil]

It takes longer to learn to run everything at Burger King than to become an EMT in this country, so no surprises there. It is exactly as it should be. In fact, most EMT's are overpaid.

Where to start with overhaul? Legislators. Unfortunately, it takes a unified voice to reach legislators, and we have none. The big organisations out there that pretend to represent our interests are too busy trying to not upset the fire chiefs to do anything serious about presenting our needs to legislators.

Simply put, the fire service has found a cash cow called EMS, and they will never willingly let go of it. And as long as they hold on to it, EMS standards and education will remain in the toilet. As long as standards and education remain in the toilet, so will wages.

So... Plan B? That would be equally impossible. It would be for EMS educators to unilaterally raise their standards without being forced to. If at least a majority dropped their certificate programs and maintained only their degree programs, that would raise the bar for enough of the country that over time it would become the de facto standard. Once that happens, then the FD's would have to either elevate their game along with the rest of us, or answer tough questions from thier citizens regarding why they provide a lesser level of education and service than every other provider in the area. That would eventually spell the demise of FD EMS and begin the new professional era.

How could we get schools to do that? It would be tough. It would be very helpful if the accrediting agencies for paramedic schools set that standard for accreditation. Then the rest of the schools, like the FD's, would be stuck defending their inadequacies, putting them in the spotlight and forcing their hands. But many schools would certainly face opposition to raising standards. The fire chiefs who keep their classes full would fight them and threaten to send their students elsewhere. They might even complain to the college board that the program was not meeting the needs of the community, which most community colleges are bound by charter to do. Of course, it could be well argued that raising the educational standards of poorly trained medical personnel is indeed addressing the needs of the community! But remember, fire chiefs are politicians with a big sympathy vote since 9/11. :roll:

Anyhow, wouldn't matter. Paramedic schools are turning people away everyday. If all the fire chiefs pulled their monkeys out, the chairs would still be full, but this time with people who are serious about the profession, not just jumping through hoops to keep their fire job.

When it comes down to it, I don't think most colleges have any more guts to face the real issues than the NAEMT does. So basically, we're screwed.

[Scaramedic]

Does this mean school teachers will start getting compensated to?.. There are many that have undergrad even grad, and PhD's that make similar wages as medics.

I agree, we should make more, and education definitely be part of the requirement, so should responsibility and increasing professionalism.

Be safe,

R/r 911

It is ironic that an increase in education does not always equal a rise in pay. My wife is looking into the NP program for Mental Health, an assload more school yet she won't make much more than she does as an RN. Now granted part of that is because its MH, but still you would think it would pay better. The upside I get free Mental Health, Wooohoo!

Peace,

Marty

:joker: