Is this a whistle blower issue?

[Just Plain Ruff]

The City here is the jury. What say you: Legitimate termination of the employee, or unfair activity on the part of the employer?

Ooooh good question.

Well the company is liable for this partly because they kept you working and you fell asleep but you better have documentation such as an email or a request in writing to go home due to sleep issues because it will be a he said she said issue there..

You are partly liable for your actions because it is up to you to know when your limits are met and by working past those limits puts you partly at fault.

The plaintiff's attorney is going to go after both of you and win against both entities, thus causing the service to pay a high judgement and probably also you the employee to pay something as well(it might just be your liability insurance who will pay though).

I find joint negligence at fault here. Both parties pay. Guilty is my verdict.

On a side note, as a supervisor, I would never force a medic or emt to work past the point of exhaustion. I would tell them to go to the crews quarters and take a nap. I would then hop on their ambulance and work for them for 4 hours or some length of time. If I was unable to do that due to stuff I had to do then I'd find someone to come in for them for a short period of time or give them the option of taking a sick day.

Exhausted medics are not any different in risk I believe than drunk or drugged medics. Same risks different catalyst.

[DFIB]

The City here is the jury. What say you: Legitimate termination of the employee, or unfair activity on the part of the employer?

The article states they were working 12 hour shifts with a four hour hold over, 16 hours max.

So one week they work 36 hours with a holdover time of 12 hours for a total of 48 hours.

The second week they worked four 12 hour shifts for 48 hours with a possible 16 hours in holdover for a total of 64 possible hours.

The article says the holdovers are mandatory but then states that they “which can make their shifts 16 hours or longer” So which is it 12 hour shifts or 16 hour shifts? Is it 8 hours overtime or is it 24 hours overtime? How far into overtime was the medic at the time of her snooze?

I am not sure the employer can "force" you to work overtime and if they can force overtime; How much overtime can a company make you work? I just don’t know the law. Either way, anyone should be able to handle a 16 hour shift without falling asleep on the patient. Did she have another job? Was she partying on her time off? Is she a single mom with small children?

What does the law say about overtime where the incident occurred? I think that is the true jury.

I think there is more to this story than meets the eye.

[Richard B the EMT]

Shortly after NYC EMS became a part of the FDNY, the department had several summer months (the "Summer Of The Mandate", 1997) where almost the entire EMS, or so it seemed, was being mandated for 6 hours, or full tour overtime, on all 3 tours, and they'd "hit" you for at least 4 of your 5 days on duty (normal schedule is an 8 hour day, 5 days on, 2 off, 5 on, 3 off). The union instruction was, work an hour, claim exhaustion, have the supervisor sign the unit off service, and go home. The department responded by insisting the member be seen at an Emergency room, where, due to the ERs usual backlog of non-emergent cases, you'd probably be getting seen after you'd be going off duty from the O/T anyway.

Nowadays, due to negotiations, the union way is the official guideline

Just mentioning this for a historical perspective.

[craig]

Gee I am glad I dont work with you guys and draconian industrial law you run to............

and as for...

On a side note, as a supervisor, I would never force a medic or emt to work past the point of exhaustion. I would tell them to go to the crews quarters and take a nap. I would then hop on their ambulance and work for them for 4 hours or some length of time. If I was unable to do that due to stuff I had to do then I'd find someone to come in for them for a short period of time or give them the option of taking a sick day.

Exhausted medics are not any different in risk I believe than drunk or drugged medics. Same risks different catalyst.

when does exhaustion ON THE JOB lead to a sick day.......if anything it is workers comp,as it is not you fault that the amount of overtime that you have been required to work attributed to the condition that you now have....

Stay Safe, I think I will continue to work here in the Aussie outback..........

Edited November 10, 2011 by craig

[DwayneEMTP]

The problem I run into with those posts Craig is that every time there is a shitty story you say something like, "I'm would never work in the shitty U.S." You seem to like to imply that every bad thing that happens somewhere, happens everywhere, and that Australia has no stories like this.

I've never worked in a system like this one mentioned, and I would never do so. These situations are just not that common.

It's truly hard to believe that you really believe that out whole system works this way. And equaly hard to believe that you're going to pretend that every service and every posting in Austraila is just another perfectly professional, happy day at Wonka's chocolate factory.

I'm not trying to be shitty, and have nothing but respect for you, but when nearly every post comes with a "I'm glad I work in Eden and not with you ignorant assholes" disclaimer, it get tiring after a bit..

Dwayne

[Just Plain Ruff]

Gee I am glad I dont work with you guys and draconian industrial law you run to............

and as for...

when does exhaustion ON THE JOB lead to a sick day.......if anything it is workers comp,as it is not you fault that the amount of overtime that you have been required to work attributed to the condition that you now have....

Stay Safe, I think I will continue to work here in the Aussie outback..........

Ok so sick day wasn't the politically correct term but they did get the opportunity to take the day off using their PTO time. That constitutes either a sick day or personal day. It's all semantics though.

And where did you get your knowledge that being exhausted was workmans comp instead of a sick day or a personal day?

[Asysin2leads]

The short answer is that there isn't any one definitive law that says how long an employer can keep you at work, especially in medical transport. You see, since no one has been able to successfully realize the difference between a legitimate emergency and shoehorning someone into an ambulance to take the to rehab, the laxity and loopholes that were created to allow units to operate unrestricted in an emergency allow for those wonderful entrepreneurs running XYZ ambulance service to keep their employees at work as long as they can. No state agency wants to say "EMS has to have 8 hours off between shifts" because, then, what if a major MCI drops? Crews might have to work for 24 or 36 hours straight. And thus, so long as we define routine medical transport as "emergencies" "emergency" procedures will allow employers to make a buck. Ain't it fun?

[craig]

The problem I run into with those posts Craig is that every time there is a shitty story you say something like, "I'm would never work in the shitty U.S." You seem to like to imply that every bad thing that happens somewhere, happens everywhere, and that Australia has no stories like this.

I've never worked in a system like this one mentioned, and I would never do so. These situations are just not that common.

It's truly hard to believe that you really believe that out whole system works this way. And equaly hard to believe that you're going to pretend that every service and every posting in Austraila is just another perfectly professional, happy day at Wonka's chocolate factory.

I'm not trying to be shitty, and have nothing but respect for you, but when nearly every post comes with a "I'm glad I work in Eden and not with you ignorant assholes" disclaimer, it get tiring after a bit..

Dwayne

thanks dwayne....never implied that anyone from the states were ignorant asshole, you seemed to put that label there your self...ruffems placed that it would be a sick day, or what ever, IT IS draconian that the worker has to use their time to payback for time lost due to mismangagement....shit it happens here as well to some extent. I have many friends that work in the states and I even enjoyed the time i was there. but the grass is not greener there to what i have here.... Like i said I am happy working here in rural aus and not having to worry about wether my employer will 'dock' me for being to exhausted to perform after doing excessive overtime

Ok so sick day wasn't the politically correct term but they did get the opportunity to take the day off using their PTO time. That constitutes either a sick day or personal day. It's all semantics though.

And where did you get your knowledge that being exhausted was workmans comp instead of a sick day or a personal day?

from thew nsw industrial relations commission

The short answer is that there isn't any one definitive law that says how long an employer can keep you at work, especially in medical transport. You see, since no one has been able to successfully realize the difference between a legitimate emergency and shoehorning someone into an ambulance to take the to rehab, the laxity and loopholes that were created to allow units to operate unrestricted in an emergency allow for those wonderful entrepreneurs running XYZ ambulance service to keep their employees at work as long as they can. No state agency wants to say "EMS has to have 8 hours off between shifts" because, then, what if a major MCI drops? Crews might have to work for 24 or 36 hours straight. And thus, so long as we define routine medical transport as "emergencies" "emergency" procedures will allow employers to make a buck. Ain't it fun?

nsw state ambulance officers award has it written that all staff are required to have a minimum break of 10 hours between rostered shifts.

so if i work 6am to 6 pm the earliest i can then start my next rostere shift is 4 am (but it would normally be 6 am)

Edited November 10, 2011 by craig

[DFIB]

Grass is greener on other side. Yea, right!

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ruffems, on 09 November 2011 - 07:19 PM, said:

Ok so sick day wasn't the politically correct term but they did get the opportunity to take the day off using their PTO time. That constitutes either a sick day or personal day. It's all semantics though.

And where did you get your knowledge that being exhausted was workmans comp instead of a sick day or a personal day?

from thew nsw industrial relations commission

See you are using your terms and I'm using mine. Exhaustion I don't believe is a work comp related reason to file work comp. I could be wrong but if it is then every one of my co-workers would apply for it every single day.

So we are comparing USA apples to NSW oranges. We both might be right.