BushyFromOz Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 I love these threads! The truth is you guys will never have a constructive discussion in here because most of you cant take the emotion out of this. Lets see it for what it is..... Somone bought/leased whatever a block of land in New York On this block of land they will build a building In this building there will be a gym, a swimming pool, maybe some office space? a car park? And someone is going to buy or rent floor space so a bunch of dudes can take off their shoes and pray to their deity - who gives a rats ass. Lets stretch it further, maybe the gym will attract fat people that will be a slap in the face to those fit firefighters who died...... Maybe that office space will have some fraudulent business people who are a slap in the face to those honest business people in WTC......... Maybe the swimming pool is a slap in the face to people who cant swim....... Car parking to people who don't own cars.... Oxygen to people who have COPD.......... A day care to people who can't have kids...... No urinals for blokes who like to stand up...... "slap in the face", calculated to upset people? anti american sentiment? Sure, only if you want it to be.... At what point are you people going to practice what you preach? Land of the free? freedom of speech? Religous tolerance? Separation of church and state? Habeus Corpus? It all means absolutely fucken nothing if its not extended to everyone, which includes some people being able to have a piece of empty floor where they can take their shoes and get their religious rocks off. Or is America to become the great hypocrisy? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwleyMedic Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Well stated OZ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERBIE1 Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 I love these threads! The truth is you guys will never have a constructive discussion in here because most of you cant take the emotion out of this. Lets see it for what it is..... Somone bought/leased whatever a block of land in New York On this block of land they will build a building In this building there will be a gym, a swimming pool, maybe some office space? a car park? And someone is going to buy or rent floor space so a bunch of dudes can take off their shoes and pray to their deity - who gives a rats ass. Lets stretch it further, maybe the gym will attract fat people that will be a slap in the face to those fit firefighters who died...... Maybe that office space will have some fraudulent business people who are a slap in the face to those honest business people in WTC......... Maybe the swimming pool is a slap in the face to people who cant swim....... Car parking to people who don't own cars.... Oxygen to people who have COPD.......... A day care to people who can't have kids...... No urinals for blokes who like to stand up...... "slap in the face", calculated to upset people? anti american sentiment? Sure, only if you want it to be.... At what point are you people going to practice what you preach? Land of the free? freedom of speech? Religous tolerance? Separation of church and state? Habeus Corpus? It all means absolutely fucken nothing if its not extended to everyone, which includes some people being able to have a piece of empty floor where they can take their shoes and get their religious rocks off. Or is America to become the great hypocrisy? Well, I disagree about the emotional part of this. I think emotions are an important part of this. Emotions are what drive human behavior- and unless we all become automatons, they always will. Obviously we should temper our emotions with logic and rational thought, but to dismiss them out of hand is wrong. Emotions are what caused the colonists here to rise up against England when we were a fledgling nation. Think about the "logic" of sailing across the ocean to get away from an oppressive ruler. Think about how irrational it was to think they could sail halfway across the world and start their own nation. The emotional element of our beings is what separates us from animals. The key is controlling those emotions and use logic to achieve a desired result. Emotionally, ground zero will ALWAYS be "scared" ground to many Americans. Think about it- ANY site of an important moment in a society can be considered hallowed ground. Yes, rationally we know it's only a location, and our memories and historical records will never let us forget these historic dates and sites, but does that mean we should ignore the physical reminder of the event? For those who are spiritually inclined, many feel ghosts/spirits/energy still reside in these locations, and anything that would desecrate these locations is an affront to those who may have perished there. I think having a location to focus our memories, grief, pride, sadness, anger, outrage etc- whatever the appropriate emotion for that event- is vital. It allows people to come to terms with what happened, to remember, to move on, and to hopefully not repeat the same mistakes we made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPINFV Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Pedophile priests are not a subset of Catholicism- they are an aberrant group of individuals who engage in a deviant and criminal behavior. As far as I know, they do not unite under a common title, nor do they justify their actions with a biblical passage. They do not claim they are justified in their actions- they are simply sick, twisted, and criminal. Radical Muslims use a bastardized version of Islam, they unite under a common cause, and justify their actions in the name of Allah. However, by the Vatican not alerting the local authorities (to the point of possible criminal negligence) is essentially the church giving a tacit green light. The Baptist church story I posted earlier is using a bastardized version of Christianity to blame the victim. Can we ban Baptists now since they are relying on specific teachings? Alternatively, radical Muslims are an aberrant group of individuals who engage in a deviant and criminal behavior whom the majority of Muslims, at the very least in this country and most likely the majority of Muslims worldwide, find abhorrent. I did not understand the reference. I don't understand your assistance that things like pedophilia is some sort of straw man argument. You set up a separate issue, attributed it to someone, and then attack it. That is building a strawman. ...and the entire "All Muslims are evil (at least to the point that we need to control where they build mosques" is an appeal to emotion. Taking an issue and transposing it to something less emotional (because there's much less "ZOMG 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11") is somehow bad? I guess consistency is too much to ask for. This isn't about PUNISHING anyone, it's about reciprocating the tolerance and understanding we are all supposed to practice in regards to the Muslim religion. We are not supposed to condemn an entire group for the actions of a "small" group among them. Agreed. So, where is this tolerance and understanding from that mosque? Nobody is denying them the right to build this "shrine", just questioning their choice of locations. It's not WHAT they want to do, it's WHERE they want to do it. Is that so unreasonable? Again- comparing pedophile priests to this situation is crazy. How is saying "You can't build here for no reason other than it's a mosque" not a condemning the entire religion? How is it not collective punishment? Aren't they protected under the first amendment just like every other religion? Would you be complaining if it was a synagogue, or church, or a house of worship from any other religion than Islam? If so, how is restricting one group anything but punishment? I NEVER said it was the government's role to step in and stop this. NEVER. I said just because something is LEGAL, does not make it wise. My opinion, but it makes perfect sense- If this Muslim group is truly concerned about encouraging tolerance, honoring those who died on 9/11, then there is NO way in the world they would be proposing this idea in the shadow of the WTC's. Personally, I don't buy it for a moment. Every religious group- and every nation for that matter- have "sacred" places that denote historic moments in their histories. We have monuments like the USS Arizona, Catholics, Muslims, Catholics, etc all have places they consider vital to their history. They can be places of great joy and triumph, or of great sadness. Why can't this Muslim group respect this? So you have no issues at all with the SCOTUS decision in the Skokie case? Also, have you considered that the actions taken in this case is people speaking out at the local government meeting where the plan was approved? We have a group of people here trying to use the government to stop a mosque, you invoke Skokie (which required a SCOTUS decision to not deny a group their rights, regardless of how hideous their views are), and try to transpose the issue to Neo-Nazis in Germany (which has very strong anti-Nazi laws) and you want to say that this isn't about the government denying one group of citizens their rights as citizens? You could have picked much much better examples then because your major examples is exactly what you're now claiming not to support. The government denying citizens first amendment rights based on emotion. As for the racist flyers- bad analogy. If you commit a crime against a minority, whatever offense you are charged with can be escalated simply because of the hate crime laws. Racism isn't illegal. Advocating racism isn't illegal. Advocating a crime, in the name of hate or anything else, is a crime. So I guess the moral of the story is don't commit crimes? What crimes has this group of Muslims committed? EVERY action has consequences- whether they be tangible or implied. We don't know what may happen, but does it take a psychic to figure out that a whole bunch of people would be majorly PO'd if this mosque/shrine was built. Everything from protests to vandalism, to much worse is entirely possible, and even likely. This isn't about punishment, it's about being sensitive to a country's feelings regarding a pivotal point in their history. Think of the thousands of years of battles being fought over places that one religion feels is their "sacred" grounds, or a vital part of their history. Can you honestly tell me that these folks do not understand objections folks have over this? What action, other than practicing a religion, has this group committed? You brought up the USS Arizona. Is it wrong for there to be Japanese culture centers in Honolulu? Can I understand the objections? Sure. I think the objections are built on an unrational hatred though. Another strawman. I NEVER said anything about denying rights. NEVER. I NEVER said they should not build this structure, I questioned the wisdom (and their reasons) for the LOCATION they chose. If we are to believe their stated intentions, then what is the problem with erecting this shrine somewhere else? Why is it so important to build this within the shadow of a place where 3000 people were murdered? The terrorists are winning battles all the time, but not the war. We still do not abide by Sharia law here, Islam is still not the required religion, and women are still not considered property or second class citizens. THAT is their stated goal- to destroy our society and all infidels. The war rages on, and I see no end in sight. So, apparently, fighting against the building of a house of worship for no better reason that the house of worship represents a religion where a small different segment bastardized the teachings is not denying rights? How much closer to attempting to deny a group religious freedom do you have to get to actually be denying rights? If we, as Americans, are so wound up that we have to complain like this, then the terrorists are winning the war because their actions are changing the very foundation of the current US government, namely freedom of religion and freedom of association. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Plain Ruff Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 (edited) So, apparently, fighting against the building of a house of worship for no better reason that the house of worship represents a religion where a small different segment bastardized the teachings is not denying rights? How much closer to attempting to deny a group religious freedom do you have to get to actually be denying rights? If we, as Americans, are so wound up that we have to complain like this, then the terrorists are winning the war because their actions are changing the very foundation of the current US government, namely freedom of religion and freedom of association. JP there are some in America that say that we have already lost the war. They would say that the actions of the terrorists have changed the very foundation of the current US Government. If you look at air travel and what it used to be like to travel pre 9/11 - minimal security to today's security which I go through every single week I would say that terrorism has fundamentally changed at least this form of our government. It takes me every bit of 1/2 hour to 2 hours to get through security every monday and every thursday night. Sometimes it goes fast sometimes it goes slow. An entire agency has been built around the terrorist activities and keeping us safe. Am I saying that it's a bad thing with all the security, NOPE Not at all. I feel safer flying than I do riding the train or subway in New York or other places. But pre-9/11 there was one thing you went through, the metal detector and your bags went through that x-ray. NOw I have to take off my coat, my shoes, my belt and walk through an X-ray machine that see's me naked. I then if there is any suspicion or a question about what they saw, I get wanded and hand patted down. If I am patted down or chosen for a enhanced Screening, a nice word for pat down get in my space, then my bag gets opened and looked through. If I refuse and make a scene then my name gets added to the no-fly list or a list of unruly passengers and I'm effectively blackballed. As for the no-fly list, a friend of mine got on it just by his name. He was unable to fly for over a month all the while trying to get his name off the no fly list. It took a large amount of attorneys fees and filing fees to get his name off the list, just because someone with his name and birth date was considered a person of interest to the FBI or other agency for terrorist ties or something. He said it took him over 2000 dollars and many phone calls to get his name off the list and they never told him how he got on it. He also lost over 15K in wages over the month he was unable to fly and in the end, he lost the contract because the client didn't want to hear about his no-fly list troubles. They just wanted him on site working for them. It didn't matter it was not his fault, but he lost the job anyway. The terrorist attacks post 9/11 have given us pat downs, x-rays and near strip searches. I can say No you can't touch me or no you can't invade my personal space, but for my saying no and voicing my disapproval of this invasive check, I forfeit my ability to fly to where I'm flying to. That to me is forecably taking away my right to choose. But do I see the logic in why they do what they do. Yep you betcha. But do I like it, NOPE not at all. Remember like I've always said here, it's easier to give up a right than to get it back. If we continue to give things away, there is no way we will be able to get them back. Edited June 14, 2010 by Ruffems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tniuqs Posted June 14, 2010 Author Share Posted June 14, 2010 http://www.nowpublic.com/world/mosque-ground-zero Commenter txlady: The twin towers were violently destroyed on sept 11, 2001. Americans died and Muslims rejoiced. We didn't round up the Muslims and send them packing. All the terroristic attacks have been conducted by Muslims. Extremists or NOT. At this site, they want to being to erect a new CALIPHATE. The name alone, harkens back to the history of CONQUERING and establishing the Islamic Caliphate. As a JEW, this is very sickening. How dare you speak with such flippant adoration. The Muslim world, even in the more moderate countries, has declared war on the Judao - Christian world. There are people in the world that choose to harm other people. Brother against brother, however, this is not ONE person. This is a whole of a people, that want nothing, but to impose their own way of life on others. They USE our system of DEMOCRACY, because the system has become corrupt. The TRUTH speakers that once permeated society (in the west) have been silenced, through political correctness and over 1/2 a century of corruption in our schools and prisons. Now, they ( the corrupters ) enter our political systems, which they have literally purchased. The Muslims contribute money to the schools to teach the doctrine of Islam. They buy our industries and financial institutions. They purchase our lands and establish SHARIA law in whole towns. SHARIA is a LAW. A country CAN'T sustain very long, if 2 laws are permitted to exist along side each other. The most oppressive will be the winner, as has been the case throughout history. The Cordoba Initiative is THAT exactly. It's a Muslim flag being raised on top of a site where Americans (civilians - sheep to the slaughter) were slain by the attack that MUSLIMS called WAR. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Spain"It was captured in 711[3] by a Muslim army: in 716 it became a provincial capital, depending from the Caliphate of Damascus; in Arabic it was known as قرطبة (Qurṭuba). In May 766, it was elected as capital of the independent Muslim emirate of al-Andalus, later a Caliphate itself. During the caliphate apogee (1000 AD), Córdoba had a population of roughly 400,000 inhabitants,[4] though estimates range between 250,000 and 500,000." BushyFromOz At what point are you people going to practice what you preach? Land of the free? freedom of speech? Religous tolerance? Separation of church and state? Habeus Corpus? It all means absolutely fucken nothing if its not extended to everyone, which includes some people being able to have a piece of empty floor where they can take their shoes and get their religious rocks off. Or is America to become the great hypocrisy? Dear Bushy: This is what your own PM stated. AUTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER TELLS THE MUSLIMS EITHER ACCEPT US OR LEAVE FOR ANOTHER COUNTRY Separately, Rudd angered some Australian Muslims by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nations mosques. Quote. " IMMIGRANTS NOT AUTRALIANS MUST ADJUST. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT. I'm tired of this nation worrying whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by the millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak mainly ENGLISH, not, Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society..LEARN THE LANGUAGE! Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian Principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on our walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept OURS AND LIVE in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us. THIS IS OUR COUNTRY, OUR CULTURE AND OUR LIFESTYLE, we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once YOU ARE DONE complaining, whining, and griping about our Flag, our Pledge, Our Christian Beliefs or OUR WAY OF LIFE, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great Australian freedom. THE RIGHT TO LEAVE! If you arn't happy here then LEAVE! We didn't force you too come here. So accept the country you accepted. These quotes may or may not agree with tniuqs's personal position concerning the present geopolitical juxtaposition and the Muslimization of western cultures. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BushyFromOz Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Harkens back to 766? As long as we don't dig up too much of the past! Dear Bushy: This is what your own PM stated. To put it in context, reply from the PM is to complaints that the Feds and ASIO were investigating persons of interest who just happened to frequent mosques I used to work with a guy who started out as a fed, he once told me that there used to be a lot of irish people under surveillance here on the 70's and 80. Guess that means we hate irish and catholics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPINFV Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Discussion of security measures. Ruff, I wouldn't call the formation of the TSA as an indicator that we've lost the war, the knee jerk reactions that have caused the TSA to be better described as "security theater" would be however. Take the liquid restriction. You can get as much liquid through the security checkpoint that you want, provided you want to make multiple trips through security. If the terrorists really want to play the liquid explosives card again, I imagine that they can scrape up an extra plain ticket or two and go through security two or three times ("opps, forgot something at my car..."). The no fly list. Personally, I think that the federal government should be held liable for your friends loss of wages and expenses. Similarly, it demonstrates the failure of the list, as well as the enforcement component, every time some 5 year old is denied a boarding pass or required to go through secondary screening because his name somehow made it on the list. It's one thing to endure some discomfort for real security. It's completely another thing, which includes a lot of the TSA changes, to endure discomfort for the illusion of security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BushyFromOz Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 The key is controlling those emotions and use logic to achieve a desired result. Emotionally, ground zero will ALWAYS be "scared" ground to many Americans. Think about it- ANY site of an important moment in a society can be considered hallowed ground. In turkey there is a place called Gallipolli. For people who don't know, the WW1 action there is regarded as one of the defining moments of Australian History, some consider federation as the conception of austrralia, and the birth took place on that battlefield as it was the first time this country acted on a world stage as a country rather than seperate colonies. To us it could possibly be the most sacred piece of ground for our country (aside from my BBQ area and fire pit) We didn't send the Victorian mounted rifles, the New South Wales Lancers, Queensland Light Infantry, we sent the Australian Imperial Force, a corp of soldiers along with our New Zealand buddies under the name ANZAC, there, we lost nearly 10,000 aussies and kiwi's for what amounted to a stuff up - the battlefields have been preserved, with a great deal of aussie bucks going to it every year. A few years ago, the turkish government started building a road through there. Oh, can you imagine the shenanigans that caused and the lines trotted out, about it being a slap in the face to the diggers, disrespect, robbing war graves etc etc. I say, build the damn road and get on with life. Should we dislike turks 90 years on because we lost 10 thousand men to their guns? In another 90 years for building that road where so many died? Okay, something else.... If someone wanted to build a mosque in Bondi near the memorial to the 88 people killed in Bali should we refuse? Where does it stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tniuqs Posted June 15, 2010 Author Share Posted June 15, 2010 Take the liquid restriction. You can get as much liquid through the security checkpoint that you want, provided you want to make multiple trips through security. If the terrorists really want to play the liquid explosives card again, I imagine that they can scrape up an extra plain ticket or two and go through security two or three times ("opps, forgot something at my car..."). No point to liquid .. the new and improved are "Binary" explosive and then body packing, their is always a way to get around security, but sorry off topic. Bushy makes a good point ... so this news release (Not Reuters) Catholic Church to be built in Riyadh. Jewish synagogue construction goes ahead in Jabalia. Anglican church lays foundation in Pyongyang. Baptist College puts cross up in downtown Baghdad. Are you picking up what I am laying down ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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