High Court Rules for White Firefighters in Discrimination Suit

[crotchitymedic1986]

No, I am in my 40s, when i said we, I was implying we black people. You do remember the civil rights movement , the MLK assasination, voting rights, birmingham, selma ? But lets not dwell in the past, my original question still stands, "How many of you currently have a black supervisor at work" ? I think we are still at less than 10 in a forum of 1000s of EMS professionals that cover multiple countries. An industry whose management force is 99% white male couldnt possibly be due to racism, it must be that blacks just dont try hard enough. Please.

I dont know why whites failed your test, but my guess would be some were probably lower middle class, and face some of the same challenges that blacks have faced. A poor rural white school in Mississippi is not much different than a poor black inner-city school in the northeast. The only difference is the poor white folks usually have a successful relative who can give them a job they are not qualified for.

[Dustdevil]

But lets not dwell in the past...

Bingo! That's exactly what we've been telling you for the last how many pages!

An industry whose management force is 99% white male couldnt possibly be due to racism, it must be that blacks just dont try hard enough. Please.

Minus 10 for lying with statistics. It's not just the management force that is predominantly white. It is the entire industry that is predominantly white. The management force statistically mirrors the workforce. And the workforce mirrors the applicant pool.

The only difference is the poor white folks usually have a successful relative who can give them a job they are not qualified for.

LOL! Anyone who is "successful" is not supervising an ambulance service!

[CBEMT]

The only difference is the poor white folks usually have a successful relative who can give them a job they are not qualified for.

Yet we're supposed to take you seriously with statements like that?

You fail at life. The fact that you REALLY believe this shit means either A) you've spent the last 30 years sitting next to Nobama in "reverend" Wright's cathedral of hate, or B ) inner-city schools really are as bad as you make them out to be, because they turned out a stupid sack of regurgitated puss like you.

Edited July 9, 2009 by CBEMT

[Siffiliss]

An open letter of apology to Crotchitymedic and all the oppressed people of the world.

I am sorry for being white. I had no idea that my just being white made me racist and a hood wearing Klansman. I will endeavor to become less white and less racist. I will turn in my white sheet and hood and attempt to stop oppressing those oppressed and especially I will stop trying to oppress you Crotchity.

I never realized that by being white I was oppressing the downtrodden and less fortunate than myself. I thought that hard work, the God given talents and the abilities that I was given when I was born was what drove me rather than my being white.

I also would like to know where the reparations for all this oppression should go. Do you want it sent directly to You Crotch or should we send it to some other group that represents the oppressed.

I have said it and I'll say it again, if you need to dumb down a test that already has been dumbed down to a 6th grade level then yes you are dumber than a 6th grader, but I was wrong in that assumption and I will endeavor to stop the OPPRESSION. I hereby will give up any advancement if there is a oppressed person going for the same job. If they don't have the same credentials as I, and they have less credentials then I will give the opportunity to that oppressed person even though they may not be up to the job but in order to do my part I will do it, damnit. Screw the consequences and the unintended consequences of someone less qualified doing the job.

Please forgive my oppression and forgive my racism, I promise to never donn the coat of white and hood of two eyeholes.

Will this do Crotch?

Very well said Ruff. Being a white female I guess that means I'm automatically a racist too. After all, who would be stupid enough to believe in such a concept as 'best person for the job regardless of color'? That's pretty darn silly. I imagine Crotch would rather have someone of similar color taking care of his mother even if they happened to be much less qualified than a white person.

How is it NOT racism when someone gets picked because of their color, even though they scored levels well below that of their counter-colored peers? IT GOES BOTH WAYS. But then, ignorance is bliss isn't it?

I too will turn in my white sheet, however I don't know what I'll cover my mattress with ...

Edited July 9, 2009 by Siffiliss

[emtannie]

Like several others, I have been watching this thread for a while… and wasn’t going to jump in…. but I can’t resist….

Quote – Crotchety ““What time are youall burning the cross ? You guys…..”

A gross generalization, which in itself is racist – and yet you choose to throw stones at others. I have not had a black supervisor in EMS. But then again, there is only 1 black family in my area, which has about 3500 people… and the husband in that family is a manager at an industrial business, and the wife is a bank manager. I don’t see any racism or discrimination there. Your gross generalizations defeat your purpose.

Quote - Crotchety: “I repeat again, you cant expect a race of people that have only been in the educational system of this country for 30-40 years (as a whole group - not individually) to compete with a race of people who have hundreds of years of education in their family. “

Crotchety, why do you look at the world and only feel that blacks were discriminated against (please note the use of the term WERE). Why do you refuse to acknowledge other incidents of racism that occurred in the US and elsewhere in the world? (and, as you referred to another thread in your posting, I will too). Please, explain to me how "your" situation is different than Irish, Polish, Chinese or other groups who were used as slave labour and not allowed education, housing, or jobs.

Please explain to me why you feel that a black person who was born and raised in the US cannot compete, yet I see immigrants who come to the US now, and have no education, and cannot speak English, overcome those obstacles and become successful. Why can they do it, when they come from a third world country, and you yourself stated that blacks can’t, even though they were born and raised in the US?

Quote - Crotchety: “Regardless of who was the first to graduate college in your family, your family had access to education since this country was founded. My ancestors were not afforded that opportunity, thanks to your ancestors. “

My ancestors did not have access to education so your argument regarding ancestors having access to education is not valid. They were slaves in Russia. When they escaped, and came to Canada, they were not allowed jobs, or educations. “My people” did not enslave “your people.” “My people” were slaves. My parents were denied college educations. Your argument has no validity.

Comparing the death of Elvis to the death of Michael Jackson is like comparing apples and oranges. Where you get the hero thing for Elvis is beyond me. I have never heard him referred to as a hero, except from you… which I find interesting…

Quote - Crotchety: “George Bush graduated from Harvard --- nuff said. “ “I suggested that each candidate be judged on his/her prior performance.”

Obama graduated from Harvard – what’s your point? Judging a candidate on performance…. Isn’t that what testing does? I find it funny that you are so incensed about blacks supposedly not getting into EMS, and talk about changes in the last 20 years. How many females were in EMS 20 years ago? Hmmmm… bias? Racism? Oh yeah – that isn’t racist – it’s sexist – that doesn’t count…..

Quote – Crotchity: “You miss the key point, the field is not level. If the field were level, I would have no problem with it. When you whites finally let us start attending your schools and universities just 40-50 years ago, the field began to level, for a few minorities. “

When you start an argument with “when you whites….” You are being racist. Again, I ask that you address why you feel that it is only blacks that can’t succeed when circumstances are challenging. Why can other minorities succeed and blacks can’t (basing this comment solely on your words, since I don’t believe this).

Quote – Crotchity: “An industry whose management force is 99% white male couldnt possibly be due to racism, it must be that blacks just dont try hard enough. Please.”

EMS is a relatively young profession. As with most young professions, advancement is made from within. As 20 – 30 years ago, EMS was probably (and I say probably because I don’t have the stats to back me up) mostly white male, those people moved up into management. Give it another 10 – 15 years, and I would bet that you see more and more minorities and women in management. Just like other businesses – and an example which I can verify, and have had personal experience with – banking. I was in commercial banking for 15 years, and was the ONLY female manager in my region. Racist? Sexist? You bet… I was consistently paid the lowest, even though my portfolio and my results were significantly better than more than half the men in my region. Why? Because I was female. I fought for parity. I based my arguments on facts and figures, not on emotion. And I won. Forgive me if I don’t fall for the “I don’t succeed because I am black.” You don’t succeed because you choose to give up. You can make changes, positive changes, if you choose to.

I know why the whites didn’t pass the test: they didn’t study hard enough, they didn’t work hard enough, and they weren’t smart enough. End of story…

“Justice for all” is a work in progress…. And by continuing to cry that life is unfair, rather than working to make positive changes, does more to hinder justice for all, than help it.

If this exam was biased, if it did not specifically test firefighting knowledge, then of course it should be thrown out. If it was testing firefighting knowledge, then why wouldn’t it be kept in? From the sites I googled, it was only part of the promotion process.

I found an article regarding this particular exam (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517074,00.html) which stated in part:

“The promotion exams were closely focused on firefighting methods, knowledge and skills. The first part had 200 multiple-choice questions and counted for 60 percent of the final score. Candidates returned another day to take an oral exam in which they described responses to various scenarios, which counted for 40 percent.”

On the surface, it appears that the exam was firefighting based… if that was indeed the case, the lawsuit is valid, as the white firefighters were discriminated against. If the exam was not firefighting based, and the grading was subjective, of course it should be thrown out.

[Siffiliss]

Here here!

[crotchitymedic1986]

Hey, there are some good responses in there -- Its a lot of reading so let me read it all again and rebutt --

Edited July 9, 2009 by crotchitymedic1986

[crotchitymedic1986]

The rebuttal --- Dustdevil first: I agree with your theory of mirroring the population. According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, african americans made up 9% of the public safety industry work-force. I think it is reasonable to mandate that 9% of all promotional opportunites go to A.Americans. After all you guys have not had any problem when the promotions mirrored the white population's numbers, fair is fair.

now emtannie:

Blacks ARE and WERE discriminated against, that has not changed. Discrimination did not end in the 60s

Yes, other races including whites have been slaves, but those races have had more years to progress

Yes, immigrants do come to this country and "succeed". Some become wealthy, but most work at 1/2 the pay of whites, and live at a lower standard of living (10 people to a 2 bedroom apartment). Many immigrants have federal programs to assist them in getting started in the US.

You describe your parents enslavement and battles, which i applaud --- but how do they fare economically to white couples their age who were born here ?

Females have been discriminated against in Fire/EMS, and are still sexually harassed on a daily basis, which is why you should be on my side of the arguement. But you have not sufferred the discrimination that blacks have. The only group that has been more discriminated against than blacks in Fire/EMS is homosexual males.

[crotchitymedic1986]

some facts and opinions:

http://www.imdiversity.com/Villages/Career...oar.asp#african

http://www.news4jax.com/news/10431847/detail.html

http://www.bls.gov/cps/labor2006/chart4-7.pdf

http://www.bls.gov/cps/labor2006/chart4-6.pdf

http://www.brookings.edu/articles/1998/spr...ion_jencks.aspx *************

http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/51_graduate...sions_test.html **************

http://www.jbhe.com/features/53_SAT.html (blacks and SAT scores)

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2005/0...ores_a_nat.html

that should be enough for now.

[emtannie]

Crotchety, there was some good reading in the links you provided.

The first link showed a number of lawsuits, but none are dated later than 2002. I suspect that link is terribly out of date. I also suspect that there are still lots of lawsuits.

The link regarding the nooses…. The crew members who did that should not have only been fired, but banned from any public service position, made to publicly apologize, and taken out behind the barn for a good whipping. Their actions are absolutely inexcuseable.

The chart on earnings was dated 2000. I would hope that in 9 years, things have improved, although I would still bet that wages are not on par. Based on the second page, Hispanics are in a worse employment position than blacks.. less are in management and sales, and more are in physical labour. I would suspect that part of the reason for the disparity is based on education level, and I would agree that some is still based on racism.

The Brookings site was a very interesting read, and it actually argued against the “usual” reasons for blacks performing poorly on tests:

"Traditional explanations for the black-white test score gap have not stood up well to the test of time. During the 1960s, most liberals blamed the gap on some combination of black poverty, racial segregation, and inadequate funding of black schools. Since then, the number of affluent black families has grown dramatically, but their children's test scores still lag far behind those of white children from equally affluent families. School desegregation may have played some role in reducing the black-white test score gap in the South, but school desegregation also seems to have costs for blacks, and when we compare initially similar students in today's schools, those who attend desegregated schools learn only slightly more than those in segregated schools.

Recent evidence suggests that disparities in school resources do affect achievement, but resource disparities between black and white children have shrunk steadily over time. The average black child now attends school in a district that spends as much per pupil as the average white child's district. Black children's schools also have about the same number of teachers per pupil as white schools. Predominantly white schools seem to attract more skilled teachers than black schools, but while black students who attend predominantly white schools probably benefit from having better teachers, this advantage seems to be offset by the social costs of being in an overwhelmingly white environment. In any event, schools cannot be the main reason for the black-white test score gap, because it appears before children enter school and persists even when black and white children attend the same schools. If schools play an important role in perpetuating the gap, either desegregated schools must be treating black and white children very differently or else black and white children must react very differently to the same treatment.”

I found that interesting, as I had assumed the same – that poverty and schooling were a major factor – however, since the gap occurs before school starts, the article continues to discuss other issues which may cause the gap, which include young child socialization. Interesting, but very hard to prove in studies…

This quote from the article is a little disconcerting: “Research also suggests that black-white differences in parenting practices contribute to the test score gap. Improving parenting skills may therefore be as important as improving schools.” It does go on in more detail, but my first thought is – how do we tell a group of people that their parenting skills need to improve? Who am I to tell them that, and how could I possibly do it without them telling me to take a flying leap? If a white person tells a black person that they need to improve their parenting skills, how offensive would that be? I am thinking that would be pretty offensive to the black person.

I think the article hits it on the head with this sentence: “Americans seem to be unusually likely to attribute academic failure to low ability rather than inadequate effort.” I think this is far bigger than academic failure – I think this is pervasive in all aspects of life.. I failed, therefore I must have someone else to blame….

I wasn’t able to open the jbhe news views link. It said it was broken.

The next jbhe link has the following quote: “Not only are African-American scores on the SAT far below the scores of whites and Asian Americans, but they also trail the scores of every other major ethnic group in the United States including students of Puerto Rican and Mexican backgrounds.”

Why is that? The article discounts economic status as a reason. It does go into explaining educational status as a reason, but also goes into much detail again about parenting, and role modelling. Very interesting, as it was discussed in the article, to think that black students look at drug dealers and rappers as their role models, and that makes their scores lower. How do we combat this?

Crotchety, the articles you posted did not validate your argument that blacks get poorer educations and are always from lower income families. It showed that Hispanics are faring worse than blacks.

So, getting back to the original post…. Was the testing for the firefighter exam truly discriminatory? And if so, how? If it was truly biased, of course it should be thrown out; but, I completely disagree with allowing people who have failed to be allowed to advance, just based on their argument that “it wasn’t fair.” Life isn’t fair. Life never will be fair, no matter how much we try. We all have to make it as fair as possible. Not just whites, not just blacks… everyone has to try. Instead of throwing stones, is there anyone who is looking at that testing and asking what could be done better? Or is everyone in that situation just so caught up in the politics of racism that they are drowning in it and can’t look for solutions? At what point do we say “I will succeed regardless of what has happened in the past” and then just go ahead and succeed? I think that is the question that has to be asked. Why are people so willing to let things that happened lifetimes ago hold them back from succeeding today?

Crotchety, you asked about the financial standing of my parents. Despite not having access to college educations, my parents were very successful, and would be considered wealthy in our area. My father owned his own company, and also farmed. I would guess that in our region, my parents ‘ incomes were in the top 10%, including local doctors and lawyers. When my family arrived in Canada, they had not even been allowed to bring their wedding rings with them. They arrived with nothing. When I see how far my family has come in 2 generations, I struggle to understand how people who have been in North America for those same 2 generations, and have had more opportunities to start with, could use what happened 100 years ago as a reason for not being able to compete.

I am not saying that racism doesn’t exist. It does, and that is pathetic. I am saying that using it as a reason to fail is also pathetic. Someone once said (and I apologise to the author of this quote, as I can’t remember who said it) “The best revenge is success.” I think that should be the motto of all who feel that they have been discriminated against, and who think they have been held back because of their race, or sex, or sexual orientation. Succeed anyways!

And, since once again, I got incredibly long-winded, I will rest for a bit….