High Court Rules for White Firefighters in Discrimination Suit

[Just Plain Ruff]

An open letter of apology to Crotchitymedic and all the oppressed people of the world.

I am sorry for being white. I had no idea that my just being white made me racist and a hood wearing Klansman. I will endeavor to become less white and less racist. I will turn in my white sheet and hood and attempt to stop oppressing those oppressed and especially I will stop trying to oppress you Crotchity.

I never realized that by being white I was oppressing the downtrodden and less fortunate than myself. I thought that hard work, the God given talents and the abilities that I was given when I was born was what drove me rather than my being white.

I also would like to know where the reparations for all this oppression should go. Do you want it sent directly to You Crotch or should we send it to some other group that represents the oppressed.

I have said it and I'll say it again, if you need to dumb down a test that already has been dumbed down to a 6th grade level then yes you are dumber than a 6th grader, but I was wrong in that assumption and I will endeavor to stop the OPPRESSION. I hereby will give up any advancement if there is a oppressed person going for the same job. If they don't have the same credentials as I, and they have less credentials then I will give the opportunity to that oppressed person even though they may not be up to the job but in order to do my part I will do it, damnit. Screw the consequences and the unintended consequences of someone less qualified doing the job.

Please forgive my oppression and forgive my racism, I promise to never donn the coat of white and hood of two eyeholes.

Will this do Crotch?

[Lone Star]

An open letter of apology to Crotchitymedic and all the oppressed people of the world.

I am sorry for being white. I had no idea that my just being white made me racist and a hood wearing Klansman. I will endeavor to become less white and less racist. I will turn in my white sheet and hood and attempt to stop oppressing those oppressed and especially I will stop trying to oppress you Crotchity.

I never realized that by being white I was oppressing the downtrodden and less fortunate than myself. I thought that hard work, the God given talents and the abilities that I was given when I was born was what drove me rather than my being white.

I also would like to know where the reparations for all this oppression should go. Do you want it sent directly to You Crotch or should we send it to some other group that represents the oppressed.

I have said it and I'll say it again, if you need to dumb down a test that already has been dumbed down to a 6th grade level then yes you are dumber than a 6th grader, but I was wrong in that assumption and I will endeavor to stop the OPPRESSION. I hereby will give up any advancement if there is a oppressed person going for the same job. If they don't have the same credentials as I, and they have less credentials then I will give the opportunity to that oppressed person even though they may not be up to the job but in order to do my part I will do it, damnit. Screw the consequences and the unintended consequences of someone less qualified doing the job.

Please forgive my oppression and forgive my racism, I promise to never donn the coat of white and hood of two eyeholes.

Will this do Crotch?

Ruffles,

Shame on you for being an oppressor! While I'm at it, shame on ME for being as 'guilty' as you! I'll stand beside you, for I am as guilty of 'faulty thinking' as you are.

LS

[cosgrojo]

Let us think outside the box for a minute on this issue... Is the lack of minorities in EMS and Fire because of discrimination, and unfair testing standards based on educational opportunities? Or is the lack of minorities in EMS and Fire a product of lack of interest in the field in comparison to those of a more WASP-y nature?

What I'm getting at is that more White guys are into Fire/EMS, than minorities are. My Daddy was a fireman, my grand-daddy was a fireman, my great-great-grand-daddy was a fireman... and so on. Fire and EMS are a sensational career choice for most Caucasian males, whereas minorities don't really have a history of it and those who are interested have to go out of their way to find out about it.

Personally... I'm a white guy... and I didn't know what an EMT was until I got to college and had some class mates who were in the field and got interested. So it is possible that if you are not entrenched in the industry to begin with you have less likelihood of getting involved. Is that opportunity... or happenstance? You can decide for yourself.

Is the industries of Fire and EMS really that attractive of a job? Are we attracting the the type of applicants that will propel us into professionalism? No, and this is with a built in marketing machine of generations of pappy's and grand-pappy's. Only a small percentage of white guys that get into the field actually show any aptitude for administration and management... so why would that be any different for minorities that choose to go after a career of low pay, painful back, and general misery? Are we as an industry attracting the best of the minority classes? Absolutely not... in fact I would contend that the minorities with any sense at all would stay away from this field. Same goes for white guys... If you were truly smart, you'd have left by now.

So I don't buy the testing standards being an issue. I can find you a white guy from a completely white neighborhood that would fail the test just as bad as the black guy from the block. Just because you want to do something and be something, doesn't always mean you have what it takes to do it. I always wanted to be a pro-golfer... but since I am a bad golfer, I'm not making the tour. Should I sue the PGA because I am a bad golfer, or just live with the fact that I do not have the capacity to play on the tour? There are some people's dream to become an EMT of Firefighter is just as preposterous as mine is to be a professional golfer.

Have I ever had a Black supervisor? Nope, never had a black partner either... I've only seen about 4 black EMT's in my life. I've seen considerably more black people than that though. I understand that I live in an area of the country that does not have a large contingent of minorities, but of the amount we have... not a lot of participation in the fire/EMS industry. So are we racist, or are black people just not interested?

Quality should win out, and we are not helping the cause of minorities by promoting members of their race who are not qualified to do the job. Because you will then have the real racists come out of the wood-works who will say, "Look at that incompetent black guy," instead of, "look at that incompetent supervisor."

[HERBIE1]

Well, we have plenty of blacks- supervisors and grunts in EMS here. We also have plenty of black FF's, thanks to the games they have played with entrance exam results in years past. Not enough minorities- make the test race neutral. Still not enough- change the standards, reduce the passing score, use race norming, band the scores so that a black guy who gets one point above passing has the same chance as a white guy with a score in the 90's.

Is an entrance exam an indication of someone's ability to perform as a FF- absolutely not. Problem is, what's the point of taking an exam if your score is irrelevant? Make it pass/fail and be done with it, but do NOT adjust the scores any further. No points for being a minoriity, no special scoring practices to ensure more minorities pass the test.

Since the playing field will never be level, this issue will never go away. Kudos to those FF's for having the stones to stand up for a double standard. 2 wrongs do NOT make a right.

[crotchitymedic1986]

Oh, where to begin ? I am glad your great-great-great-grandfather and every male descendent in your family was a firefighter. My great-great-great granfather or mother for that matter probably would have loved to have been a firefighter, but blacks were not allowed to enter the profession until the 60's (but we arent disadvantaged that every white male firefighter's son and nephew gets hired regardless of their ability because granddaddy worked there).

I repeat again, you cant expect a race of people that have only been in the educational system of this country for 30-40 years (as a whole group - not individually) to compete with a race of people who have hundreds of years of education in their family.

As far as promotional tests, I am for dropping them. Why not just promote the best employee ? Written tests were created for the sole purpose of suppressing minority candidates. So a white guy makes a 90 on the test and the black guy makes an 85, are you telling me that in and of itself makes the white candidate better ? If you must have a test (especially in the fire department) why not have a written, practical, oral, and a review of the past year's performance (how often they called out or were late, what special projects or committees have they served on). And if you must "grade" us, we should have an extra 10 points added to our score, for doing all of the work all year long while you white guys are running your side business on fire department time for most of the shift.

[cosgrojo]

Oh, where to begin ? I am glad your great-great-great-grandfather and every male descendent in your family was a firefighter. My great-great-great granfather or mother for that matter probably would have loved to have been a firefighter, but blacks were not allowed to enter the profession until the 60's (but we arent disadvantaged that every white male firefighter's son and nephew gets hired regardless of their ability because granddaddy worked there).

I repeat again, you cant expect a race of people that have only been in the educational system of this country for 30-40 years (as a whole group - not individually) to compete with a race of people who have hundreds of years of education in their family.

As far as promotional tests, I am for dropping them. Why not just promote the best employee ? Written tests were created for the sole purpose of suppressing minority candidates. So a white guy makes a 90 on the test and the black guy makes an 85, are you telling me that in and of itself makes the white candidate better ? If you must have a test (especially in the fire department) why not have a written, practical, oral, and a review of the past year's performance (how often they called out or were late, what special projects or committees have they served on). And if you must "grade" us, we should have an extra 10 points added to our score, for doing all of the work all year long while you white guys are running your side business on fire department time for most of the shift.

Personally... I agree with you in much of what you say. I was simply trying to add another element to it. Unfortunately like all subjects that are of a touchy nature (Race, religion etc.), the truth is a combination of many different viewpoints. I agree with your testing/interview procedure, and believe there are areas that actually do it that way, I think that maybe many places don't do it this way because of the cost involved of the various interviews and tests.

I hate the fact that relatives of people on the Fire department get green-lighted into positions before more qualified individuals... but if the roles were reversed, do you think the minority would do it different? Doubt it... nepotism is a human trait that spans all races and creeds.

[Dustdevil]

Written tests were created for the sole purpose of suppressing minority candidates.

Funny, that's what they also said about practical tests, oral interviews, and performance reviews. And that's what you'd say about them if they were instituted and you still failed.

And if you must "grade" us, we should have an extra 10 points added to our score, for doing all of the work all year long while you white guys are running your side business on fire department time for most of the shift.

You get no points for doing your job. Promotion isn't about the job you have been doing. It's about your ability to do the job you are applying for.

I never had time for side jobs as a fireman. I was too busy working on another college degree, to better prepare myself for the job I am doing. Are you?

[tniuqs]

Written tests were created for the sole purpose of suppressing minority candidates.

This is the most raciest comment I have ever seen in print, good grief.

And if you must "grade" us, we should have an extra 10 points added to our score, for doing all of the work all year long while you white guys are running your side business on fire department time for most of the shift.

And this is rather raciest in itself, talk about stereotyping .... !

[Dustdevil]

Real bummer about the whole racisim thing. If it weren't for the endemic racism in America, Obama might have been elected president and Michael Jackson's funeral might have gotten the largest television audience of all time.

Oh wait....

[WolfmanHarris]

Real bummer about the whole racisim thing. If it weren't for the endemic racism in America, Obama might have been elected president and Michael Jackson's funeral might have gotten the largest television audience of all time.

Oh wait....

I was going to leave this thread alone entirely, but I couldn't resist.

Sure, a black man can make millions in entertainment or be the elected leader of one of the largest free country in the world, but be your supervisor at a blue collar job? Come on!