High Court Rules for White Firefighters in Discrimination Suit

[Patch]

I believe the aboriginal people of this continent would disagree with your “Blacks have it the worst “opinion.

And EMTANNIE is not on your side likely because most of your opinions seem hateful in my opinion.

Whatever you think or feel you can not reasonably believe that in order to promote and better one group, another group should be demoted and hurt.

Or are we just playing an emotional game of my hurt is bigger than yours?

[WolfmanHarris]

Females have been discriminated against in Fire/EMS, and are still sexually harassed on a daily basis, which is why you should be on my side of the arguement. But you have not sufferred the discrimination that blacks have. The only group that has been more discriminated against than blacks in Fire/EMS is homosexual males.

My large (400 Paramedics and Managers plus support staff) service is 55% female in the Paramedic ranks and one of four senior managers is female. Information is not collected or available for racial demographics so I cannot provide it, but greater then 50% of my recruit class was female and/or visible minority. A couple were homosexual males. A couple were first generation Canadians. Black Canadians were not represented in this group. More then half had previous university prior to becoming Paramedics or were in the joint UofT/Centennial College PCP/Bsc program.

What is the significance of this with regards to discrimination? Actually I think very little as it's a poor sample. Everyone represented within this group had to beat significant odds to reach their position. Hundreds applied for less then fifty spots at each college. Most programs had between 30 and 50% attrition from start to graduation. Nine hundred wrote the written test for hiring. Three hundred moved on to practicals. Interviews and lift testing brought created a combined score that resulted in 27 being hired.

Can we take this to mean that minorities and women have moved to the top of this field and that all issues are solved? Of course not. Why? Because by this point they are all adults and the various personal choices, upbringing, socio-economic factors and discrimination have done there damage early in life and what we are seeing is a group that has overcome their challenges to succeed.

I've said this before, the cure to the lingering and/or continuing discrimination will not be found in post-secondary education or the workplace. The damage is done long before adulthood and redresses at this point or band-aid solutions that will perpetuate themselves. Where discrimination exists within the workplace, we must stamp it out; we cannot though use the workplace and places of higher education* for social engineering.

* Please don't take this to mean that I'm against scholarships for the underprivileged to grant opportunities. Of course I support recognizing and funding merit. I only mean that artificially advancing people beyond their means is not the answer.

[Lone Star]

After reading Annie's 'long winded reply', I found her analysis quite interesting. It seems that those links have come to the same conclusion that most of us here have. The educational opportunities are pretty much equal for both black and white students. Now it boils down to simply this: If you don't put in an honest effort toward your own education, you're not going to amount to anything later in life.

To sit back and blame 'whitey' for 'keepin a brotha down' is nothing more than trying to blame someone else for an individual's lack of effort.

Is it a problem of 'bad parenting'? That's one plausible arguement. My parents believed that education was important, and set rules for doing homework, acceptable grades on report cards and pushed us to increase our potential.

The excuses of 'we were slaves' and 'we're being kept down' are over. Granted it's far easier to sit back and expect someone else to 'fix the problem' than it is to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty trying to fix things in your own area. Face it: yes blacks WERE slaves. Yes they WERE discriminated against. But those days are over! The only ethnic group that can actually be blamed for blacks falling short of the mark now, are blacks.

Am I a racist? Absolutely not! Am I prejudiced? Absolutely, but not in the way you'd like to think I am. I'm absolutely prejudiced against STUPIDITY. I abhor those that REFUSE TO LEARN!

IGNORANCE is 'not knowing', whereas STUPIDITY is 'refusing to learn'.

While 'bad parenting' MAY be an 'excuse' for not doing well in public schools (grade school, junior high and senior high school), that 'excuse' becomes a moot point when the individual refuses to further their own education. There are too many scholarships, grants, loans and other financial aid available for furthering one's education. It falls back on the individual to avail themselves to these options and actually put forth the effort and dedication to obtain a better education!

The bottom line is this: There's only one person to blame if you don't become a 'useful member of society', and that one person is YOU! There are no "gimme's" in life. If you want something, you actually have to do something to obtain it. You have to EARN it! If you're too lazy to earn it, you can't sit back and blame everyone else that has it.

[crotchitymedic1986]

Thanks for those of you who responded without resulting to attacks and name calling, we can only learn when we are openminded. And to answer all, yes I believe poor parenting is a major factor if not the major factor, but lets look at why that is. Obvioulsy black children are more likely to grow up in a single-family household, which isnt necessarily a bad thing (before all you single parents jump down my throat), but basically the last generation of black kids have grown up without a father. You may not want to hear it, but racism does play a role. The inequity in pay for those who have jobs, and the inability to get jobs, moves minorities to the lower end of the socio-economic scale -- which puts them in worse neighborhoods and schools. Like Chris Rock said, no matter where you are in America (and note I appreciate the Canadian facts, but they are Canadian not American) if you are on MLK Blvd, you better get the hell out of there quick. Because the white man put all blacks in public housing in the 60s-80s, and then introduced crack cocaine to the population, the result is higher teen pregnancy, more highschool dropouts, and more imprisoned black males. A teenage black mail today is more likely to die or go to prison than he is to get a white-collar management job. And I fully understand that part of the reason for so many blacks not being able to get into public safety jobs is because they can not pass the criminal background check due to crimes they committed as teens, but that is the viscious circle that whites have put us in --- which I know that you can not believe or see, but it is the truth.

It is kind of like the problem with illegal aliens. Because they are illegal, they can not go to the police when crimes are committed against them, and they can not get banking accounts (white man's rules). So everyone knows that on any given day, any hispanic looking male who is not speaking english probably has several hundred dollars in his pocket, which makes him an easy target for robbery.

Yes the slaves were freed in the 1800s, but we couldnt get jobs or education until the 1960s (the only major company that was hiring blacks before the 60s was the military --- which is a whole other arguement -- funny how we got to fight for whites freedom when we were being discriminated against in our own country). When you gave us freedom you then put us in a new prison (public housing) which broke apart our families.

The Republican (rich white) mantra of pull yourself up by your bootstraps is ironically spoken by people who have not had to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. There are exceptions to every rule, but if most of you look back on your life, you will see that most of you have never had to really pull yourself up by your own bootstraps (sure you have had problems, like everyone else does --- but most of you have never really gone to sleep hungry or cold). Most of you had a great middle-class existence complete with mother, father, nice home, a good education, a car when you were a teen, and college if you wanted it. The black child is more likely to come from a single parent home, with a parent with poor credit (who cant get a college loan for you, or any other loan), poor diet, poor education, and lives in a housing project or in the part of town where drug sales occur within 100 feet of your door every day and night.

I will say it again, if the white race had only had access to this country's educational system for 40 years, you would not do well on written or oral tests either. It will be generations before we as a group can compete evenly in that category with other races who have had 100s of years of education in their family. Its like taking a rich white kid from Boston who is the fifth generation of his family that has graduated from Harvard, and putting him side-by-side with a poor white kid from Mississippi who is the first generation to graduate high school and college ----- If you had to bet $5,000.00 on who would do better on any written/oral test, who are you going to bet on ?

[HERBIE1]

Thanks for those of you who responded without resulting to attacks and name calling, we can only learn when we are openminded. And to answer all, yes I believe poor parenting is a major factor if not the major factor, but lets look at why that is. Obvioulsy black children are more likely to grow up in a single-family household, which isnt necessarily a bad thing (before all you single parents jump down my throat), but basically the last generation of black kids have grown up without a father.

You may not want to hear it, but racism does play a role. The inequity in pay for those who have jobs, and the inability to get jobs, moves minorities to the lower end of the socio-economic scale -- which puts them in worse neighborhoods and schools.

First. a previous poster did a nice job looking at the links you provided. I read them as well but have nothing significant to add.

As for the above passage...

How is it that racism forced fathers to abandon their parental responsibilities? Before the Civil Rights movement, the prevalence of single parent homes was essentially the same as for any other group-it was rare. I read a study about this and need to find it again, but I promise you it is true. This isn't a racial problem, it's about abdicating your responsibilities, and that is a problem endemic to the community, not an external issue.

You need to back up a bit with the inequity in pay issue here. WHY is there an inequity in pay? Claiming racism is the easy cop out but... Could it be that the high school drop out rate for blacks is astronomical? It's pretty hard to make a a decent living and support a family without a basic high school diploma or GED, much less a 6 figure income. The change has to start somewhere, and with all the incentives, special programs, mentoring, tutoring, affirmative action, and other race based initiatives available, even in an economically depressed area, it is EASILY possible to elevate yourself and change the status quo for yourself, but the effort must be there. The "barriers" to success are self imposed, not from white folks. It's not easy for ANYONE to succeed these days, and there are no promises for success for anyone except the trust fund kids, and when programs are specifically targeting the black community, what else should be done?

Like Chris Rock said, no matter where you are in America (and note I appreciate the Canadian facts, but they are Canadian not American) if you are on MLK Blvd, you better get the hell out of there quick. Because the white man put all blacks in public housing in the 60s-80s, and then introduced crack cocaine to the population, the result is higher teen pregnancy, more highschool dropouts, and more imprisoned black males.

Again, I know for a fact that many people who grew up in public housing back in the 50's and 60's and it was NOT just for blacks. It was also a family oriented place with working people who were not rich, but were getting by. The people who were successful worked hard, stayed in school, and stayed out of trouble, and they did not have many of the protections and set asides available now. At some point, attitudes changed, and the value of hard work was replaced with a victimization mentality which is a direct result of the set aside movement. People who may not have had the strongest work ethic or morality base realized that thanks to hand outs, they could "survive" just fine without putting forth much of an effort, and that mentality took hold and exploded. As a result, they became marginalized and began to operate independent of the rest of society-do what you have to do to survive. Social engineering ideas that were meant to help or simply to atone for past injustices, have done done nothing but ensure a permanent underclass. After all, it's human nature- most people take the path of least resistance. You seem to be suggesting that poverty automatically begets violence, lawlessness, immorality, and a lack of education. I strongly disagree with that notion. I've worked in poor black areas for my whole career- I know better. Those who are able to "get out" of the ghetto have family support and people who instill values and a work ethic. I suggest the opposite is true- once no value is placed on education, a stable family unit, and a strong work ethic, those societal ills become the norm. It's not the "white man's" fault that a kid decides to drop out and join a gang. They make that decision as soon as they buy into the notion that staying in school, getting a job, staying out of trouble, working your way up, etc- is "acting white", selling out, and is a bad thing.

A teenage black mail today is more likely to die or go to prison than he is to get a white-collar management job. And I fully understand that part of the reason for so many blacks not being able to get into public safety jobs is because they can not pass the criminal background check due to crimes they committed as teens, but that is the viscious circle that whites have put us in --- which I know that you can not believe or see, but it is the truth.

Again- the chicken or the egg here. If a teenage black male drops out of school, what "career" do you think he is qualified for? They make a choice- based on their role models, their family, and their peers. If they attempt to elevate themselves, they are accused of "acting white". You can blame the white man all you want- and clearly you do- but you need to stop blaming everything on the "white man". Laws exist to protect from true racism- and yes it does occur- along with sexism, homophobia, misogyny, xenophobia, nepotism, and all sorts of bias. Get over it, get past it, and stop using it as an excuse.

It is kind of like the problem with illegal aliens. Because they are illegal, they can not go to the police when crimes are committed against them, and they can not get banking accounts (white man's rules). So everyone knows that on any given day, any hispanic looking male who is not speaking english probably has several hundred dollars in his pocket, which makes him an easy target for robbery.

More "white man whining". If you are illegal, you should NOT have a right to anything other than a one way ticket back to where you came from. That means no bank account, no drivers license, no free education, no free health care, no rights reserved for citizens. These aren't white man's rules, this is common sense. Go to Mexico or any other country as a US citizen, decide to stay without becoming a citizen and demand the things we give ILLEGALS here. See how far you get.

I have news for you- illegal aliens work their arses off for low pay, but somehow they are able to survive, make a living, and even send money back home to their families. They don't feel that menial jobs are beneath them, and don't expect to get a "white collar job" because they know they ARE illegal, have limited language skills and are undereducated.

Yes the slaves were freed in the 1800s, but we couldnt get jobs or education until the 1960s (the only major company that was hiring blacks before the 60s was the military --- which is a whole other arguement -- funny how we got to fight for whites freedom when we were being discriminated against in our own country). When you gave us freedom you then put us in a new prison (public housing) which broke apart our families.

Again, at some point, choices are made to either continue the status quo, or try to elevate yourself. These days, there is NO reason why someone has to CHOOSE to stay in a ghetto. Step one is to stay in school. PERIOD. How many gang bangers do you think have HS diplomas or GED's? Step 2- take responsibility for your own actions- meaning if you cannot support yourself, you had better not start spreading your seed and having kids you cannot take care of in any way. After that, the road is wide open. Difficult- yep- and these days, it's difficult for EVERYONE, but when you have special programs that give you opportunities unique to your group, you even have an advantage over everyone else. USE IT. There are no promises of success for ANYONE except an elite few. Always been that way, and always will be.

The Republican (rich white) mantra of pull yourself up by your bootstraps is ironically spoken by people who have not had to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. There are exceptions to every rule, but if most of you look back on your life, you will see that most of you have never had to really pull yourself up by your own bootstraps (sure you have had problems, like everyone else does --- but most of you have never really gone to sleep hungry or cold). Most of you had a great middle-class existence complete with mother, father, nice home, a good education, a car when you were a teen, and college if you wanted it. The black child is more likely to come from a single parent home, with a parent with poor credit (who cant get a college loan for you, or any other loan), poor diet, poor education, and lives in a housing project or in the part of town where drug sales occur within 100 feet of your door every day and night.

Bull. You have a myopic view of "middle class". My "middle class" upbringing:

A father with a high school education, stay at home mom. Public school education for us. (That was the norm) Worked his arse off 12-14 hrs a day, worked his way up to middle management. I stayed in school, stayed out of trouble- mostly- and worked nearly every day after school. Lived in apartments until I was 14 until they could save enough to buy a house. Had 1 family car, and although we always had food on the table, not much left at the end of the month. Took 1 major family vacation- to Disney World-they saved for years for it. I started to work at age 14 at $1/hr. Soon worked 2-3 jobs. Saved my money, bought my my first car at 16. Come college time, there was no money to pay for it. Applied for financial aid- sorry- dad makes "too much" money. It wasn't about net income after expenses, they went by his salary. Sell the family car, they said. Needed to be a minority to be eligible for most of the money. Applied for and received a school loan in my name- cosigned by parents. Graduated and took 10 years to pay off my loans, working on privates and driving a truck for $4/hr. (I still have the contract that is stamped "Paid in Full".

That is "middle class" reality for most people and no different than most people I grew up with. All had parents who instilled a strong work ethic and a "bootstraps" mentality. Nobody was given something for nothing. NOBODY. If you couldn't afford it, you either put in extra hours, got a 2nd job, or you did without it because nobody was standing there with a monthly check to bail you out.It simply was not an option.

I will say it again, if the white race had only had access to this country's educational system for 40 years, you would not do well on written or oral tests either. It will be generations before we as a group can compete evenly in that category with other races who have had 100s of years of education in their family. Its like taking a rich white kid from Boston who is the fifth generation of his family that has graduated from Harvard, and putting him side-by-side with a poor white kid from Mississippi who is the first generation to graduate high school and college ----- If you had to bet $5,000.00 on who would do better on any written/oral test, who are you going to bet on ?

More bull. Except for maybe a Kennedy or Rockefeller family, what someone's great-great great-great grandpa did has NO bearing on their educational performance today. NONE. YOU are the one being educated, NOT an ancestor from centuries ago. YOU make the choice-stay in school, learn, get an education, or drop out.

Explain the success of immigrants like a Korean/Arab/Slavic etc., family who comes here from REAL poverty- growing up in a village with no running water, living in a hut, under an oppressive and violent dictator that kills to keep power. They don't have things like affirmative action, welfare, or set asides. If you don't work, you don't eat. They come here with nothing- and don't even speak the language, yet in a generation or 2, own a grocery store, a cleaner, a restaurant, or some other business. They learn the language, become citizens, and they prosper. Like the "white man", they do not have race based help. They even make enough to send for more family members to get out of their horrible situations.

Tell me again how the evil Republican "white man" denies their success?

Get off the pity pot.

Edited July 11, 2009 by HERBIE1

[Lone Star]

Amen and hallelujah!

Very eloquently stated, Herbie.

I came from a 'split family'. Living with my mother was mostly a 'single parent home', where we were considered poor. Yes, I know what it's like to go to bed hungry, cold etc. When I lived with my father, I was one of 5 kids being supported by 2 working adults. No, we weren't 'rich' by any means, and only had one 'big vacation'...we went to the Grand Canyon.

I stayed in school, threw papers, mowed yards, raked leaves, and shoveled snow for 'pocket money'. I joined the military and was finally able to buy my first car at 18. My grades weren't good enough for a scholarship, so college was out for me at the time.

Even while living with my father, we lived in a 'poor part of town', which was mostly section eight housing (government rent assisted). We had our share of drugs, violence, gangs, etc. Anyone remember the Kayla Rolland shooting in 2001? That happened less than a mile from my house.

You can't sit back and tell me that just because you live in a particular geographical location that you cannot put forth an effort to better yourself! Where I lived black students were shooting people for their SHOES! The street behind my house 2 white kids were shot for a basketball hoop!

Granted it took me 30+ years to actually make it to college, the point remains; I did something to further MY education despite all the 'pitfalls' that were in my path!

Having to pull oneself up by the bootstraps happens more than you realize or care to admit to Crotchity, it happens every day by people who are tired of their current situation and actually have the determination to do something to change it!

I've had to work 2 and 3 jobs just to get by....just to take care of the 'basics'.

Like I said before, YOU are the only one holding you back. Don't like your current situation? Get off your ass, stop playing the 'victim' here and actually DO something to change the situation you find yourself in!

[crotchitymedic1986]

spoken like a true white person. You can not leave the projects if you have no credit, if white banks will not loan you money, you can not buy a car, a house, or a college education. The statistics from the department of labor show that blacks (hispanics and women) make less than their white counterparts at the same job. That is if we can get out of prison long enough to get a job. Blacks are 7 times more likely to be in prison than whites, even though we only make up 17% of the population, but there is no racism there.

http://www.racialdisparity.org/images/demo...hs/table_03.pdf

[Lone Star]

spoken like a true white person. You can not leave the projects if you have no credit, if white banks will not loan you money, you can not buy a car, a house, or a college education. The statistics from the department of labor show that blacks (hispanics and women) make less than their white counterparts at the same job. That is if we can get out of prison long enough to get a job. Blacks are 7 times more likely to be in prison than whites, even though we only make up 17% of the population, but there is no racism there.

http://www.racialdisparity.org/images/demo...hs/table_03.pdf

BULL!

Rather than spend money on USELESS things like gold for the 'grille', diamond studded watches, etc, I focused on what was IMPORTANT and did without alot of the 'flash/bling' and was able to change my situation!

If I didn't have the cash for it, I either worked harder to get it, or did without.

As far as Blacks being 7 times more likely to be in prison, while only comprising 17% of the total population tells me that it seems that they're the ones pulling 7 times more crime!

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/fugitives/detroit/det-list.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/fugitives/atlanta/atl-list.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/fugitives/seattle/sea-list.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/fugitives/denver/den-list.htm

Just looking at the DEA website alone, you'll see that in any state you pick, blacks and other minorities are the highest population on their 'most wanted' lists. No, it's not 'racism', it's because it's easier than working an honest 40 hour week!

As shown here:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g185/LON...Jstatistics.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g185/LON...csbyoffense.jpg

If you break down the crimes, you'll see that the black offender is more apt to engage in violent crime. This, like any other action, is a CHOICE!

If blacks are being 'unfairly imprisoned', then why is 'black on black/ black on white (to name two) crimes such a pandemic in this country?

You've played the 'race card', you've played the 'racism card' and you've played the 'victim card'; all have been trumped by FACT.

[HERBIE1]

spoken like a true white person.

No, spoken like a person who worked hard for everything they have, with no handouts and no help simply because of their race or ethnicity.

You can not leave the projects if you have no credit, if white banks will not loan you money, you can not buy a car, a house, or a college education.

White banks??

LOL You need to pay attention to the news. Our current financial collapse is due in large part to those "white banks" being forced by activist and liberal groups like ACORN to lower standards so "everyone" can own a home- regardless of their ability to afford it.

You can't leave the projects if you drop out of school and then complain that you can't find a job, gang bang, father children that the government needs to support instead of you, and then blame the "white man", racism, and slavery for all your problems.

The statistics from the department of labor show that blacks (hispanics and women) make less than their white counterparts at the same job.

Do those statistics also show that the son, in-law, friend, or political supporter of the right people also make more money, have better jobs, and get better promotions than people with no such clout? Get over it- life isn't fair for lots of people. Does a kid deserve to be born into an abusive home, or to a situation where he/she is being raised by a single parent on welfare? Since when does your situation doom you to repeat the same mistakes your parent(s) made? Bad things happen to people, and a good parent wants something better for their children. They instill proper values and a strong work ethic, and push their kids to do better than they did, not making the same mistakes.

That is if we can get out of prison long enough to get a job. Blacks are 7 times more likely to be in prison than whites, even though we only make up 17% of the population, but there is no racism there.

Interesting that you note the racial makeup of this country. I believe your numbers are high- I understand it's more like 12-13% of the population is black, but whatever. Point is, with affirmative action and set aside policies that apply across the board, in every city and state, this means that a very small percentage of the country gets a huge advantage over EVERYONE else. It's still not enough, I guess.

Hmm- seems to me this is "cause and effect", NOT racism. Break the law, get convicted, go to jail- regardless of your color or ethnic origin. Seems like a pretty straightforward consequence of one's CHOICES.

So if a black man commits a crime, he goes to jail because of RACISM, not because he BROKE THE LAW by doing things like selling drugs, armed robbery, or committing murder? I think you need to brush up on the definition of racism.

You seem like a bright guy- tell me you don't really believe this nonsense you are spewing.

This persecution complex has gotten old for a lot of people. Simply crying racism at every turn doesn't have the same shock value it once did and certainly hasn't done peple in ghettos any favors, has it? We have a black President of the United States, for crissakes, Tell me again about all those barriers and how opportunities are not available for black America.

[emtannie]

“I will say it again, if the white race had only had access to this country's educational system for 40 years, you would not do well on written or oral tests either. It will be generations before we as a group can compete evenly in that category with other races who have had 100s of years of education in their family.”

I am still going to argue that this opinion is an excuse, not fact.

When I was growing up, my parents didn’t hand me anything. I had to work for my own money. I didn’t own my own vehicle until I was 21, and then it was a used one that was more than 10 years old. I paid my own way through university, with the help of scholarships (which I worked my ass off for, so I would have good grades to get them).

In my last year of university, I ran out of money, so I lived on the street for 4 months. I stole money out of the fountains at the mall so I could buy food. I sold everything I had so that I could pay my tuition. I couldn’t get work because I didn’t have decent clothes to wear to work, and we were in a recession. I was too proud to ask my parents for money. I was determined to make it on my own, and I did.

My family didn’t have access to over 100 years of education. Don’t use that as an excuse… and I will say it again – the best revenge is success…

So what is the solution? Giving handouts is not the solution – the Canadian government has proven that with the handouts to the native population – free education, including college or university, free health care, free housing… all that does is develop a group of people who cannot and will not work. I realize that is a Canadian example.. but I am sure there are similar examples in the US.

Giving a payout is not the solution – what will happen to that money? Will it go to education? Good housing? Improving lifestyle? I seriously doubt it.

Promoting those who do not meet the skill set required is not the solution either. It breeds a workplace of apathy – why should I work hard? My job is secure because I am a (insert female, minority, disabled, or other discriminated group here) person. That type of hiring does not improve the workforce – it undermines it.

Having a white person provide programs to educate on better parenting, better health care, better education, are not going to work, because those programs will come from a white person.

Any ideas that come from a white person will not be taken seriously, because they come from a white person (that is racist too, isn’t it…)… so what is the solution?