Carrying the "Everybody feels good" mentality too

[crotchitymedic1986]

I dont have any statistics to back up my arguement, but I do know this:

When I go to the grocery store or stores like Kmart, walmart, and Target, it doesnt take me long to find the "hands-off" disciplined child. You can hear them from the other side of the store.

[DwayneEMTP]

Edit: Evidently I messed up while quoting. This was meant to be in responst to Lone Star's claim that he's provided 'statistical data' to support his contentions.

Statistics, science of collecting and classifying a group of facts according to their relative number and determining certain values that represent characteristics of the group. The most familiar statistical measure is the arithmetic mean mean, in statistics, a type of average . The arithmetic mean of a group of numbers is found by dividing their sum by the number of members in the group; e.g., the sum of the seven numbers 4, 5, 6, 9, 13, 14, and 19 is 70 so their mean is 70 divided by 7, or 10.

..... Click the link for more information. , which is an average value for a group of numerical observations. A second important statistic or statistical measure is the standard deviation, which is a measure of how much the individual observations are scattered about the mean. The chi-square test is a method of determining the odds for or against a given deviation from expected statistical distribution. Other statistics indicate other characteristics of the group of observations. In addition to the problem of computing certain statistics for a particular group of observations, there is the problem of sampling. This is an attempt to determine for what larger group (called the population) of individuals or characteristics the statistics for this particular group (called the sample) would be a representative figure and how representative a figure it would be for a given larger group. This second problem of sampling can be solved only by resorting to the theory of probability probability, in mathematics, assignment of a number as a measure of the "chance" that a given event will occur. There are certain important restrictions on such a probability measure.

..... Click the link for more information. and higher mathematics. In most applications of statistics to scientific and social research, insurance, and finance, the statistician is interested not only in the characteristics of the sample but also in those of some much larger population. Consequently, the theory of sampling is the most important part of statistical theory.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Statistical+data

A little help for you regarding the term "statistical data." When you continue to use terms well above your education level, and claim to have "proved" points you haven't even justified as viable theory yet, you simply make yourself look more silly.

There is nothing scientific about pulling a bunch of shit out of the tabloids, or Googling "school shootings" and posting all that you find. If you want to use science, you need to do the work of science. There are no realistic short cuts short of promoting a logical cause/effect chain that will at least make one go "Hmmmmm?"

According to your 'theory', the violence in early New York? If immigrant parents had had some balls all would have been well. Gangs in the inner cities? Simply the effect of 'hands off parenting.' The Taliban? Certainly there must be a Dr. Spock book in every home. Come on Lone Star, get real.

Dwayne

[spenac]

OK here goes. I have known some real monsters that were spanked but not actually any consistent discipline. Parents get frustrated and spank. Kids had no clue why what etc and they remained monsters. I have seen the same with time outs, grounding, etc. If it is not consistent any type of discipline will fail as it just confuses the child. The well behaved children behave because they have had consistent educational discipline that may include a spanking even. All this crap that there is only one right way is truly annoying. I am sick of all the so called experts that just want to sell books. Here is the free guide to raising children: consistent educational discipline. Perhaps I should write a book and be a so called expert. :roll:

[DwayneEMTP]

I dont have any statistics to back up my arguement, but I do know this:

When I go to the grocery store or stores like Kmart, walmart, and Target, it doesnt take me long to find the "hands-off" disciplined child. You can hear them from the other side of the store.

Again, amongst this mostly educated crowd, I continue to be surprised that you use that to believe that all of the children you didn't hear were raised differently. As well, other than the news, I see almost no evidence that though the term “hands off kids” is prevalent, that the practice is too. I know many people with children, am very active in my son’s school, yet know of perhaps 5% of the parents that would claim to ‘never’ spank their kids (observed only as I’ve not asked them all), and have never heard that particular term used by any of them.

Dust, I do believe that you and I have started to argue at cross purposes. I have long ago stopped arguing that 'my' way of raising children was correct and have simply been arguing that I don't believe any one person, or even large group of people can observe snapshots of a tiny group of a massive population and realistically draw accurate conclusions as to the reasons for any given set of behaviors.

The data involved is so massive, the interactions that effect each child so unbelievably huge, that it's been difficult for me to believe that you're comfortable stating that you've taken all of that into account, in your head, without the aid of organized analysis and withdrawn data accurate enough to base the raising of children on.

I think MAST pants is an excellent example. I'm going to pull this out of my rear, but it seems to me that they were born from military trauma. They were used and propagated based on inaccurate data that 'seemed' to be right and accurate. When science reared its ugly head and took a look at them they very soon fell out of favor. They collected data for MAST trousers the same way, it seems to me, that you're collecting data for child rearing practices, "it appeared so obviously true that all of that silly science just wasn't necessary."

We have a body of behavioral evidence that's been well vetted, (I'm still confused why you continue to refer to it as "some paper"), so I'm unclear why we choose, in this argument, not to acknowledge it. I have no such confusion in the general population, as thinking is much more difficult than spanking, but when dealing with you I'm unable to see why you continue to attempt to denigrate the most soundly proved body of science next to, say, physics?

Again, my argument is against the "I don't need science to tell me what I can see with my own eyes" mentality. The same mentality that would leave us with a flat world orbited by the sun, not for or against the way one chooses to raise their kids. For me, that argument is pointless until we define to some extent what is allowed as valid, logical argument. Most of this thread would have been laughed out of an 8th grade debate class.

Though many wouldn't, I hope that you'll see respect presented by my effort to put forth me best arguments instead of the opposite being true. Though I know I can (possibly) become overly aggressive sometimes, no disrespect was intended to you at any point.

Dwayne

[CTXMEDIC]

How can I as an educated, caring man strike a child who is learning his way in the world. A child who admires everything I do, follows my lead, LOVES me and respects me and then beat them into submission or terror to acquire behavior I deem desirable/acceptable?

If they did the former, the latter wouldnt be required. I dont think anyone here advocates 'beating them into submission'.

[crotchitymedic1986]

Sure it is evidence:

Child throws a tantrum in the store:

Hands on, either smacks their bottom right then, or takes them to the car or bathroom to administer discipline.

Non-hands "single-mom" (that should offend someone --- lol), listens to the child scream and cry for 10 minutes, then finally gives in and gives the child what it wanted.

Dont need any science to figure that one out.

[crotchitymedic1986]

akflightmedic wrote:

I do ask this question?

If spanking is so effective, why do we stop doing it? If I am late to work, shouldn't I just get a few smacks and all will be well? If I fail on a project or neglect to secure a new contract, a few swats and everyone moves on?

Its called progressive disipline, you get an oral warning, a written warning, a suspension, and then terminated. It is still a spanking.

[akflightmedic]

Sure it is evidence:

Child throws a tantrum in the store:

Hands on, either smacks their bottom right then, or takes them to the car or bathroom to administer discipline.

Non-hands "single-mom" (that should offend someone --- lol), listens to the child scream and cry for 10 minutes, then finally gives in and gives the child what it wanted.

Dont need any science to figure that one out.

Non hands talks in normal tone to child to see if child stops. Non hands informs the child despite the inconvenience to themselves, that they will leave the store immediately and will result in a lost privilege.

Non hands follows through, leaves the store, and carries out said punishment. Non hands explains to the child after he has regained control that his behavior was unacceptable and now must bare the consequences.

This is one of several favorable yet time consuming outcomes to this situation which do not involve hitting the child. Hitting accomplishes absolutely nothing other than instilling a sense of fear and mistrust from the one person on the planet who he relies on for everything.

Hitting may silence the situation or it may aggravate it. Hitting may also make you look cool to all the other "hands on" parents, so I guess there is something for the parent to gain.

When you lose control to the child, and yes resorting to hitting him is losing control, I do not care how stonefaced you are, he has ultimately played you. He has pushed the limits and you have lost, lost a lot.

Again I will ask, since many of the supporters ignored my post or missed the question.

What do you resort to when spanking no longer works? DO you think that is the timeto try reason and logic? No, you have already missed that boat.

I compare this to the EMS education debate. Lay down the solid foundation first, then build upon it. You can not build a loving, respectful relationship when it is filled with violence.

[akflightmedic]

akflightmedic wrote:

I do ask this question?

If spanking is so effective, why do we stop doing it? If I am late to work, shouldn't I just get a few smacks and all will be well? If I fail on a project or neglect to secure a new contract, a few swats and everyone moves on?

Its called progressive disipline, you get an oral warning, a written warning, a suspension, and then terminated. It is still a spanking.

Does a child not deserve the same?

Oral warning of what is to come, reminder of what is to come, suspension of a privilege, loss of privileges (whatever is age appropriate)?

And no, it is not still a spanking. No one lays a hand on you my friend. There is no sudden attacks. You are informed of expected behavior, reminded of it, punished non physically for not complying, etc.

Imagine how humiliated, disrespected you would feel if such were to occur. How much trust would you have in the future? Would your future behaviors be done out of fear of a sudden beating or because you have been taught the proper way and had it explained to you?

[spenac]

What do you resort to when spanking no longer works? DO you think that is the timeto try reason and logic? No, you have already missed that boat.

.

I think I answered that with the below: