BlackSheep's EMT-J, must equal EMT-Joke...

[Scaramedic]

considering fire is taking over EMS I am qualified to speak of how I am ramming you out of your "profession".

Really where?

Many cities are finding out that does not work. The city of Portland tried that years ago with the Portland Fire Bureau. In the end the citizens of Portland voted it down. Why? Because not only was it going to cost the taxpayers a butt load more money in taxes but PFB was going to charge the same rates as AMR. Also from what I have read FDNY (Asysin2leads correct me if I'm wrong) is less than thrilled at running NYC EMS now. Even the hallmark of Fire EMS, Medic One is more of a hospital based system than a fire system, started and maintained by Harborview. So tell me Quint where is this great rush for Fire to "take over EMS?"

I have another question for you Quint. Why is it if a company making widgets slowly over years of improvement starts selling less widgets they start downsizing their staff, yet fire departments continue to grow and spend more tax dollars even though the number of fires per station has gone down? Could it be because Chiefs are really good at finding ways to milk tax dollars from the naive citizens they serve? Hazmat, Confined Space Rescue, Whitewater Rescue, Marine Rescue, Doggy Rescue, Kitty Rescue, Playground Equipment Extrication Team, and EMS. Where is it going to stop?

I get really nervous when I hear statements like "were taking over EMS" because they are never followed by an intelligent reason. It comes down to because we can (read into this "we need the money") not because it would be better for the patient or the community.

Peace,

Marty

:joker:

[BEorP]

We are far from under educated

Sorry... I stopped reading after that.

[JPINFV]

We are far from under educated, we are Basics plain and simple no two ways about it........you knew that when you took the course! If you want to be "advanced" go for it, your patch will then read "PARAMEDIC" which is how it should be! If you are lacking in skills or education you did not investigate what you were getting into, I am full aware of what is coming and I welcome it, because I love fired up people that's how Ca Ca gets accomplished, not by whining about it on a flippin internet site. you want advanced skills go to school and get a job as a Paramedic otherwise stick to the basics

Oh, really? You really think that 120 hours of basic first aid training that is just past what boy scouts get is really considered a proper education? Do you even understand most of the common diseases seen, even by a basic (CHF, a-fib, etc)? How much do you understand about psych disorders that are commonly seen (Schizoaffective versus Biopolar versus Schizophrenia). How much about the cardiovascular system did you really learn during those 120 hours? Of course, my personal favorite since oxygen IS the primary BLS drug. Do you even know why we need oxygen?

Rid I do not disagree with education and advanced care......I do disagree paying two paramedics for their skills when one of them has to be the driver (not much use for ALS skills behind a steering wheel, although I am sure dust will make an argument for that one). Why should a hospital trip get expensive just so you have an equal to talk to.

Because even paramedics and [gasp] doctors sometimes bounces ideas off of one another while treating patients? Because maybe one medic might not be able to start an IV, but the other one can? Because it's probably nice being able to have someone else who can do more then get a BP and put the patient on oxygen when on scene?

Open invite for you to come and educate me Dust!!!! And the last I heard from you was whining and complaining about not being on the same level with us lowly firemen when it comes to money and respect, considering fire is taking over EMS I am qualified to speak of how I am ramming you out of your "profession".

There are fire departments still? Can you really call an agency where the majority of their calls are for medical aid a 'fire department?'

The problem with fire fighter/paramedics is that they, on average, either became a fire fighter to be a paramedic or became a paramedic to be a fire fighter. They neither care, nor devoted to one of those roles, and generally suck. The only reason why fire fighting is more respected then EMS is because of age. Personally, I would rather have good fire fighters that fight fires and good paramedics that treat patients then a mediocre fire fighter/paramedic.

[quint]

Again attitudes and egos prevail!!!

A BASIC IS A BASIC

if you want advanced training then go for it, I have nothing against education AT ALL! I do have problems with EMT-B's wanting more for less, which is what this thread was about and I have problems with Paramedics wanting to get rid of basics because they are too basic. I also have a problem with the king shit attitudes that you guys come out of class with, there is a reason I am a basic..........I ONLY WANT TO BE A BASIC and if checking pulses and applying O2 is all I want to do that is all I will do.

if you guys would slow down and READ you would see my problem is the same as yours just through different eyes and words, but you are ALL hell bent to justify and prove your worth that you see something you disagree with and get tunnel vision

[BEorP]

Yes, basics are basics. Why do you then claim you're not under educated? You need a lot more education that EMT-B to be a health care professional rather than an ambulance driver.

[JPINFV]

What I'm saying is that giving a drug without understanding either why the patient needs it or what it does is stupid. EMT class teaches the how and when, but not the more important why.

Oh, and I'm a basic, so it's not some sort of "paragod" mentality with me. While I would love a larger scope of practice, the idea of basics who lack even a basic understanding of physiology also getting that same scope scare me to no end. Things like understanding why you need oxygen is, actually, so basic that it's taught to high school students. Personally, I want the people transporting me to have more then a high school understanding of biology. Unfortunately, too many providers lack even that. Because of this, the basic scope is so dumbed down that our indications for a nasal cannula is that the patient can't stand a non-rebreather (and the NRBs are dumbed down, as it is, so that we don't kill the patients if we don't connect it to oxygen).

The fact is that the EMT- B level of training is not enough to understand WHY we're doing what we're doing. This makes us dangerous, unloved, and, ultimately, unneeded in a 911 system.

One last point. I have no advanced training. I do have more education, though, then the average basic. There is a difference.

[zippyRN]

an EMT-B may well be an EMT-B - but is it safe and approrpaite for this to be the most senior provider on scene at a life threatening emergency ? possibly not.

realistically in most other mature EMS systems someone with 120 hours of training is either a first aider working events or takes granny to her outpatients appointment..

[quint]

What I'm saying is that giving a drug without understanding either why the patient needs it or what it does is stupid. EMT class teaches the how and when, but not the more important why.

Oh, and I'm a basic, so it's not some sort of "paragod" mentality with me. While I would love a larger scope of practice, the idea of basics who lack even a basic understanding of physiology also getting that same scope scare me to no end. Things like understanding why you need oxygen is, actually, so basic that it's taught to high school students. Personally, I want the people transporting me to have more then a high school understanding of biology. Unfortunately, too many providers lack even that. Because of this, the basic scope is so dumbed down that our indications for a nasal cannula is that the patient can't stand a non-rebreather (and the NRBs are dumbed down, as it is, so that we don't kill the patients if we don't connect it to oxygen).

The fact is that the EMT- B level of training is not enough to understand WHY we're doing what we're doing. This makes us dangerous, unloved, and, ultimately, unneeded in a 911 system.

One last point. I have no advanced training. I do have more education, though, then the average basic. There is a difference.

Then here is an idea for you if you think basics are such a bad deal.........BECOME A PARAMEDIC, if we basics are so G'damn dangerous why are there still classes being taught? Why are certificates still being issued? There are enough medics out there that if basics were so dangerous they could get them wiped out.

Good for you guys getting more education, but it is pretty damn ignorant of you to make the assumption that I have not furthered my education, I just simply choose to stay at the basic level rather than be lumped in with crappy attitudes that are displayed proudly on this site.

You had to have known when you went to EMT class what you were getting into, if not then the blame lays on you. If the PARAGODS want to get rid of basic's then do it, otherwise stop bellyaching and bashing on other levels and professions, this relates back to my you aren't professionals because of attitude.

And BEorP I have no issue with being a driver but it's my choice not yours!

ZippyRN I have never once said to have dual basics or even hinted at giving them seniority, nice attempt at a spin though!!!

[JPINFV]

Then here is an idea for you if you think basics are such a bad deal.........BECOME A PARAMEDIC, if we basics are so G'damn dangerous why are there still classes being taught? Why are certificates still being issued? There are enough medics out there that if basics were so dangerous they could get them wiped out.

I, actually, currently have a different path in mind. Why are their still classes? Because the FD wants to train people at a lower level and the IFTs can charge more then just sticking a gurney and an O2 tank in the back of a van and transporting that dialysis or discharge that way.

Good for you guys getting more education, but it is pretty damn ignorant of you to make the assumption that I have not furthered my education, I just simply choose to stay at the basic level rather than be lumped in with crappy attitudes that are displayed proudly on this site.

Good you you. The average basic is still under-educated. You have to talk about the average person, not the exceptions.

You had to have known when you went to EMT class what you were getting into, if not then the blame lays on you. If the PARAGODS want to get rid of basic's then do it, otherwise stop bellyaching and bashing on other levels and professions, this relates back to my you aren't professionals because of attitude.

I'm not going to apologize for trying to improve this profession at all levels. The only way to improve it is by increasing the amount of education to be considered competent to start. You have to know the faults before you fix them.

And BEorP I have no issue with being a driver but it's my choice not yours!

Um, what you do on scene is actually up to the person with the highest level of medical education. Hopefully, that will be at least a paramedic. Your only choice is to limit yourself by not embracing higher education for yourself or higher standards for your level.

[quint]

I, actually, currently have a different path in mind. Why are their still classes? Because the FD wants to train people at a lower level and the IFTs can charge more then just sticking a gurney and an O2 tank in the back of a van and transporting that dialysis or discharge that way.

If FD's get it done or if Ambulances pull their head out of their wallet, makes no difference to me!!

Good you you. The average basic is still under-educated. You have to talk about the average person, not the exceptions.

If you want them to have MORE education then make it happen, if you can't then stop whining

I'm not going to apologize for trying to improve this profession at all levels. The only way to improve it is by increasing the amount of education to be considered competent to start. You have to know the faults before you fix them.

I don't care if you do or don't feel like apologizing! Either fix stuff or shut up!!!

Um, what you do on scene is actually up to the person with the highest level of medical education. Hopefully, that will be at least a paramedic. Your only choice is to limit yourself by not embracing higher education for yourself or higher standards for your level.

In all actuality what I do on scene is MY choice, I made the choice to be a basic so get off your high horse before I shoot it out from under you!!