Presumptuous

[chbare]

I remember many EMS providers initially questioned the actions of the paramedics who responded to MJ. (Not necessarily on this site.) After watching the testimony today, I believe there are a couple of points to consider:

1) There is often much more to the story than initially assumed.

2) Good documentation that is as objective as possible is critical because it can come back to haunt us.

[DFIB]

MJ?

[Richard B the EMT]

Michael Jackson

[DwayneEMTP]

I remember many EMS providers initially questioned the actions of the paramedics who responded to MJ. (Not necessarily on this site.) After watching the testimony today, I believe there are a couple of points to consider:

1) There is often much more to the story than initially assumed.

2) Good documentation that is as objective as possible is critical because it can come back to haunt us.

Can you be more specific? I know you can't type it all out, but I would be interested in the broad strokes....

Not busting your balls, just curious what you've found, as your thoughts are always educational.

Dwayne

[island emt]

You're assuming that anyone really cares that a rich drug addict managed to pay people to give him a fatal overdose.

The Paramedics that responded acted appropriately. They found a drug addict in cardiac arrest and worked him.

[chbare]

No problem Dwayne:

I noticed many people thought the paramedics handled the situation incorrectly because the patient was transported after being in arrest for an extended period of time on scene. This naturally led into conversations about working on scene and the fact that transport was not really indicated as the crew should have looked at terminating efforts. There were some pretty negative comments thrown around about the crew. Again, not necessarily on this site.

Now that information is coming out, it seems circumstances beyond the EMS crew's ability to control occurred. I am not following the trial, but I listened to the paramedics testimony. They appeared professional and competent. It seems they suspected things were not right and it looks like they in fact were very aggressive about trying to obtain history and did a thorough patient assessment. They even called and received field termination orders but were overridden by the physician on scene who apparently felt a pulse in spite of all the evidence that pointed to the fact that MJ was clearly dead.

Anyway, a good lesson in making premature judgements and assumptions. I'm not calling any one in particular out, but if the shoe fits...

Island, you appear to have missed my point. It has nothing to do with what people think about MJ or his problems. My point is about some of the initial criticism of the crew who worked MJ.

Edit for an additional point.

Edited October 1, 2011 by chbare

[ERDoc]

I haven't been paying attention but I think we have a very unique situation here. I'm not saying he deserved any more than anyone else would get. First, it seems like the international press was on-scene before the ambulance ever got there. I'm sure it was a pretty volatile situation in the house. You have a family who it sounds like was freaking out. You also have a questionable situation of what happened, and a doctor on-scene who has something to do with it and is trying to cover his tracks. They were not being given all information and had to make decisions in a bad situation. I think the best thing to do here would have been scoop and run. Get the pt and get the hell out.

[HERBIE1]

Doc is right. Special circumstances- treat and get the hell out. The paparazzi stake out homes of high profile folks 24/7, so there will always be cameras, press and the associated insanity of that.

Let the ER deal with the fallout and drama. There were a couple things going on here- high profile case, and an MD on the scene. With a high profile case, you KNOW there will be additionally scrutiny on every thing you do. The story the crew got did not match up with what they saw. BIG red flag there. Couple that with the doctor trying to CYA, the crew had no choice but to transport- regardless of the probable outcome. The doctor allegedly felt a pulse- OK fine, but what was the associated rhythm? I call BS there, but whatever. We always err on the side of the patient, right? Medical control denied termination, so even if they simply transported the body with no further intervention, I see no problem with that under those circumstances. If the crew DID terminate field efforts, now THEIR actions would be coming under scrutiny- especially from the doctor on the scene trying save his own arse.

Like it or not, high profile, VIP folks DO get preferential treatment and the rules change. When a former 70 year old dignitary here collapsed and went into cardiac arrest in his doctor's office, efforts to revive him in the field and in the ER were fruitless, yet they actually put this guy on a heart lung bypass machine in the ER. For a "simple" cardiac arrest. Has anyone ever heard of that for John Q Citizen who has a massive MI?

[chbare]

Actually, medical control did terminate and even called time of death, but the doctor on scene took over care and refused to terminate. Also, the responders were initially not aware that this patient was MJ. In addition, there were no family members in the room when the crew arrived.

[HERBIE1]

Actually, medical control did terminate and even called time of death, but the doctor on scene took over care and refused to terminate. Also, the responders were initially not aware that this patient was MJ. In addition, there were no family members in the room when the crew arrived.

DId the doctor accompany the crew to the ER? That's the determining factor for us- we will follow the doctors wishes IF he/she is coming with to personally direct patient care, but again, these things are never cut and dried. Medical control is generally reluctant to override an MD on scene unless they are being ridiculous or unreasonable.

Wow. The crew did not know this guy was MJ? Why do I find that hard to believe?