Add on topic of the mosque discussion

[Just Plain Ruff]

ok, after 22 pages of often vehement opinion and others opinions that are more moderate and tempered.

I have a couple of questions that I think if posted in the mosque discussion would get missed or not answered.

I would like to know a couple of things

1. After seeing some of the vehement responses on the referenced thread, have you forgiven the attackers? I ask this not from a christian basis or background, but as a person, have you forgiven the attackers for doing what they did? It's perfectly fine with me if you say you have not. But why have you not forgiven them?

2. If a mosque is built at the site of the one proposed, how does having this building built affect your life? Does it directly affect your personal life? If it does, please explain. Or is it just the thought of this building and what it represents which is Islam that offends you.

3. It is my understanding from a couple of Muslim men I talked to in Orlando about this mosque in New York, they say this isn't truly a Mosque in the sense of it being a mosque. A Mosque is a building that is specifically built for worshipping Allah and if there are other activities like a gynasium and cultural center housed inside the building then it cannot be considered a Mosque. (AK Correct me if these guys told me wrong). The 3 men I talked to over a couple of beers at the hotel told me that it's the media interpretation and the american interpretation of Mosque that is wrong.

So... if this is not truly a Mosque then do you think the furor over this should be the same or less?

4. well that's all the questions I have.

thanks for reading.

[akflightmedic]

ok, after 22 pages of often vehement opinion and others opinions that are more moderate and tempered.

I have a couple of questions that I think if posted in the mosque discussion would get missed or not answered.

I would like to know a couple of things

1. After seeing some of the vehement responses on the referenced thread, have you forgiven the attackers? I ask this not from a christian basis or background, but as a person, have you forgiven the attackers for doing what they did? It's perfectly fine with me if you say you have not. But why have you not forgiven them?

Whether I forgive them or not is irrelevant. In my opinion, they are no different than all the other heavily influenced (brain washed) religious folks who are always making one issue or another. The attackers did what they felt was best with what information they have. It does upset me that it is on "our land" but historically speaking, we have been very lucky. We always start fights on other people's soil as it is a much easier sell to the public when not here in plain sight.

2. If a mosque is built at the site of the one proposed, how does having this building built affect your life? Does it directly affect your personal life? If it does, please explain. Or is it just the thought of this building and what it represents which is Islam that offends you.

It has zero effect on my life and changes nothing for me.

3. It is my understanding from a couple of Muslim men I talked to in Orlando about this mosque in New York, they say this isn't truly a Mosque in the sense of it being a mosque. A Mosque is a building that is specifically built for worshipping Allah and if there are other activities like a gynasium and cultural center housed inside the building then it cannot be considered a Mosque. (AK Correct me if these guys told me wrong). The 3 men I talked to over a couple of beers at the hotel told me that it's the media interpretation and the american interpretation of Mosque that is wrong.

So... if this is not truly a Mosque then do you think the furor over this should be the same or less?

I have the same understanding. I also love the hypocrisy, it exists in all religions. Nothing like watching Muslims jump on a plane every weekend to leave Kuwait and head to Doha, Dubai or other tolerant places where no one knows them so they can party like it's 1999 (drink beer, random sexual encounters,etc). Upon return to their home, they become all pious and strict again...ahh such is life.

4. well that's all the questions I have.

thanks for reading.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ak, that was exactly the response I wanted.

I think we are on the same page on some of this. The mosque does not affect me in any way.

I loved your last comment. It sort of hit the nail on the head, at least for me.

[HERBIE1]

ok, after 22 pages of often vehement opinion and others opinions that are more moderate and tempered.

I have a couple of questions that I think if posted in the mosque discussion would get missed or not answered.

I would like to know a couple of things

1. After seeing some of the vehement responses on the referenced thread, have you forgiven the attackers? I ask this not from a christian basis or background, but as a person, have you forgiven the attackers for doing what they did? It's perfectly fine with me if you say you have not. But why have you not forgiven them?

I do not have the "power" of forgiveness, nor am I evolved enough to turn the other cheek. I also have no use for people who do not value the life of innocent people.

2. If a mosque is built at the site of the one proposed, how does having this building built affect your life? Does it directly affect your personal life? If it does, please explain. Or is it just the thought of this building and what it represents which is Islam that offends you.

Well, if we take this attitude, then we have no reason to send humanitarian aid to another country, to assist them in overthrowing some evil tyrant, or anything else that does not DIRECTLY impact my life here. We pick and choose causes and ideas that are important to us. It is not the BUILDING, but what it represents- the whole package. If this group truly wants to honor those who died on 9/11, then why are they so insistent on building on THAT particular SITE? They were offered another site for their project- farther away from ground zero, but turned it down. Why do you think they refused?

3. It is my understanding from a couple of Muslim men I talked to in Orlando about this mosque in New York, they say this isn't truly a Mosque in the sense of it being a mosque. A Mosque is a building that is specifically built for worshipping Allah and if there are other activities like a gynasium and cultural center housed inside the building then it cannot be considered a Mosque. (AK Correct me if these guys told me wrong). The 3 men I talked to over a couple of beers at the hotel told me that it's the media interpretation and the american interpretation of Mosque that is wrong.

So... if this is not truly a Mosque then do you think the furor over this should be the same or less?

A gym, cultural center, AND A MOSQUE are part of the proposed project. Again- why are they so insistent on this particular site?

Read about the history of establishing mosques on the site of Muslim conquests all over the world. Do you not see a problem with this mentality?

4. well that's all the questions I have.

thanks for reading.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I know the history of establishing mosques at sites of conquest. I really do know that. I didn't until recently but I do.

But the 3 muslims that I talked to at my hotel said that this is not truly a mosque as it encompasses more than what a mosque allows to be truly considered a mosque.

If a building does more than what a mosque represents then it's not a mosque.

Symantics of course.

These three men who I talked to said they thought that placement of this center so close to Ground Zero was a terrible idea. They called it "a stupid idea" They are involved in their mosques quite a bit and they are from New York.

they said that the organizers of this mosque were truly out of touch with the majority of their muslim brethren but they also said that Obama is truly out of touch with the majority of American people.

As we parted ways they blessed me in the name of Allah and I did the same in the name of God. Parting as good participants in a great 2 hour discussion over heinekens and sandwiches. I say this not to impart any wisdom or anything but Kum Bay Yah! was out in force that day.

[JPINFV]

ok, after 22 pages of often vehement opinion and others opinions that are more moderate and tempered.

I have a couple of questions that I think if posted in the mosque discussion would get missed or not answered.

I would like to know a couple of things

1. After seeing some of the vehement responses on the referenced thread, have you forgiven the attackers? I ask this not from a christian basis or background, but as a person, have you forgiven the attackers for doing what they did? It's perfectly fine with me if you say you have not. But why have you not forgiven them?

Have I forgiven the terrorists? No, however I don't blame all Muslims for the actions of a few. It's possible to not forgive and not hold a grudge as well as not forgive and not endorse collective punishment. There are actions that are unforgivable and while I doubt very many people have forgiven Hitler and Germany for the Final Solution, I doubt very many, if any at all, believe that current Germany and all Germans believe what Germany did in the 1930s and 40s was good.

2. If a mosque is built at the site of the one proposed, how does having this building built affect your life? Does it directly affect your personal life? If it does, please explain. Or is it just the thought of this building and what it represents which is Islam that offends you.

Doesn't affect my life at all. However I feel that bending into outrage to not build it weakens my rights as rights are non-negotiable. While freedom to do something does not mean freedom from consequences, the consequences have to be directed at the right people, and sharing the same X (input any trait here) is a tenuous link as blaming all Baptists for Fred Phelps. Should we ban Baptists churches and community centers from a 2 block radius of military cemeteries?

3. It is my understanding from a couple of Muslim men I talked to in Orlando about this mosque in New York, they say this isn't truly a Mosque in the sense of it being a mosque. A Mosque is a building that is specifically built for worshipping Allah and if there are other activities like a gynasium and cultural center housed inside the building then it cannot be considered a Mosque. (AK Correct me if these guys told me wrong). The 3 men I talked to over a couple of beers at the hotel told me that it's the media interpretation and the american interpretation of Mosque that is wrong.

So... if this is not truly a Mosque then do you think the furor over this should be the same or less?

I don't believe that there should be any furor over this.

[Richard B the EMT]

It took a few minutes to penetrate my thick skull, but...Moslems drinking an alcoholic beverage? Boy, wait until the fundamentalists get a hold of them!

[DwayneEMTP]

Note: These comments are created using my nearly complete ignorance of current events or the Koran, and therefore, of course, always subject to change given new, credible information.

ok, after 22 pages of often vehement opinion and others opinions that are more moderate and tempered.

Before I even noticed, that thread it was 10+ pages I think, and unfortunately we've had very few productive, educational discussions that evolved so quickly so I stayed away. The reason I mention this is that I'll be giving my opinion without the benefit of those pages of discussion so if I'm repeating oft repeated thoughts and ideas, well, then I'm sorry about that. Just sayin'..

1. After seeing some of the vehement responses on the referenced thread, have you forgiven the attackers? I ask this not from a christian basis or background, but as a person, have you forgiven the attackers for doing what they did? It's perfectly fine with me if you say you have not. But why have you not forgiven them?

I've never really been in a position to forgive them, only, from my perspective, to choose not to hate them. They didn't attack me, they attacked America. Do I like that? Of course not, I love my country at least as much as the next guy. But to try and make it more personal then that is not only foolish, in my opinion, but poisonous. We've lost friends, neighbors and loved ones to this attack, I will not also poison my health and attitude. Of the event, I'm saddened. Of those that accomplished it? I have no more feeling than I would for a stray bullet that killed an innocent.

2. If a mosque is built at the site of the one proposed, how does having this building built affect your life? Does it directly affect your personal life? If it does, please explain. Or is it just the thought of this building and what it represents which is Islam that offends you.

I believe that it will effect me greatly. Once again we are attempting to choose an enemy that is not an enemy. The Muslim community in general is no more my enemy than is the Christian community in general. I am sickened by the knee jerk reaction surrounding this issue. I want to live, and have my son live in a country that refuses to punish people for something that they didn't do based on an affiliation that they were born into. Women are weak and ignorant, blacks have small brains and their build makes it obvious that they were created for manual labor and Muslims are terrorists or terrorist supporters. How many times do we have to prove these generalizations bullshit before we stop punishing people for our bullshit generalizations?

I don't adhere to any religious doctrine, but many of my American brothers and sisters do, and as long as they profess to be American I want them treated as equals, based on their actions and judgements. If not, then why go to half measures? Why stop at slandering their character by restricting their access to ground zero, why not simply round them up and put them in camps until this whole mess is settled? What could possibly go wrong with that?

3. It is my understanding from a couple of Muslim men I talked to in Orlando about this mosque in New York, they say this isn't truly a Mosque in the sense of it being a mosque. A Mosque is a building that is specifically built for worshipping Allah and if there are other activities like a gynasium and cultural center housed inside the building then it cannot be considered a Mosque. (AK Correct me if these guys told me wrong). The 3 men I talked to over a couple of beers at the hotel told me that it's the media interpretation and the american interpretation of Mosque that is wrong.

So... if this is not truly a Mosque then do you think the furor over this should be the same or less?

I don't believe it changes the issue at all. We're sending the same message. That there are still classes of Americans. Some that are 'good' and others that, if not bad, are at least suspect. Some that are deserving, others that are not. People feel safer if they can identify an "enemy", something "we" can rally against. There has to be a "them" if there is going to be the safety of "us." That's simply ignorant, mob behavior. Prove that the Muslim religion in general endorses the shit that happened at the twin towers and I'll be onboard. Until then it's just a bunch of scared people looking for someone to hate.

Dwayne

[island emt]

Have I forgiven the terrorist who slandered their religion to commit crimes against innocent individuals ? NOT on your life !

However I do not blame all of the islamic faith for the heinous deeds of a few. They were believers in a twisted version of jihad that is not the teaching of the Koran.

I cannot find it in my being to forgive them for I lost two close friends on flight 93 and the son of an old friend at the towers that day.

Will the presence of an Islamic center in Manhattan change that or affect me in any appreciable way? NO

Much of the rhetoric about this story is the work of the racist right, the same politicians who voted against providing health benefits to all the surviving brothers & sisters who worked the pile and now are suffering from life threatening illnesses.

[Paramagic]

People feel safer if they can identify an "enemy", something "we" can rally against. There has to be a "them" if there is going to be the safety of "us." That's simply ignorant, mob behavior. Prove that the Muslim religion in general endorses the shit that happened at the twin towers and I'll be onboard. Until then it's just a bunch of scared people looking for someone to hate.

Dwayne

Very well put Dwayne.