scratrat Posted April 21, 2007 Author Share Posted April 21, 2007 A cute but weird story to lighten up the thread a bit. Grandma's gotta gun. Peace, Marty That was pretty funny, especially the part about balancing herself on her walker. But scary too. That is a little extreme. If she was in immediate danger, sure, fire away. But to shoot someone's tires for theft is a little extreme. That's negligence. And things like that give gun owners a bad name. But thanks for the chuckle nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicNorth Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Scatrat - no, I can't honestly say that I have been in the postions you, or many of the other people here have been in. What I am really saying is that the fact that your country has built this situation by writing in stone their rights to own, carry, and use firearms. If I lived there I might own one too, and that scares the hell out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scratrat Posted April 21, 2007 Author Share Posted April 21, 2007 You're right. But they've created a problem that there is no easy fix to. I don't think taking away those rights 100% is the answer, but I do agree that something needs to be done. I still can't believe you can't own firearms in Canada. Is that all guns or just handguns? Don't you guys hunt up there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asysin2leads Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Actually Asys- The "old west" was comparitively crime free in comparison to just about any major city. Yes there were bad people who did bad things and there were good people who were wrongly convicted (at a very high rate), but studies have shown that the entire Western half of the North American continent from 1860 to 1870 (these years are an estimate but close to what the study stated- it was a 10 year period post gold rush) had a lower crime rate per capita and total crimes reported than New York City in 1989. While there are a huge amount of variables, this is a comparison of a time when the citizens policed themselves to a time when guns were all but outright banned in a modern major metropolitan city. I think the Native American population may want to beg to differ about crime rates during the Old West, particularly when it came to things like land rights. In an area where a population polices itself, then of course crime rates will be lower because reported crime rates would be lower, because there is no one to report to. I don't think when someone slaughtered a Native American encampment, each death was duly reported as a homicide. Like you said, there are plenty of variables to look at, but I hesitate to think the days of the Gold Rush and the OK Corrall were the Pax Americana. By the way, when the 2008 election comes, and the right wing types run on platforms of MORE GUNS FOR SCHOOLS FOR THE SAFETY OF YOUR CHILDREN, I am gonna be at home with a cold one, laughing my fool head off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneEMTP Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Once again, nothing would make me happier than reading the headline that says "Couple badly bruised in wiffle ball bat mugging!" North quoted the stats of other countries that have less gun violence because they have less guns...honest question...Did they have guns to begin with? Was Canada at some point over run with gun owners that were somehow convinced to give up their guns? What did you say to the crack heads, rapists, muggers, gang bangers, etc. to convince them to do so? It seems this questions is often asked..and always ignored...How do we unring the bell?? I will happily give up my gun when you convince me the people that pose a threat to my family will be unarmed as well...How do we make this happen? Not sniping (no pun) at you North, you offered very valid stats...I just wonder if they really apply when you're comparing the "have, but want to take them away" to the "Never had"s ...know what I mean? Have a great day all! Dwayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicNorth Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 A number of points to consider from the night's postings here. 1. Wendy, I'm sure that the death of anyone under the age of 16 is included in the statistics quoted. I don't think it makes any difference, in that the statistics are simply showing how many die in gun-related incidents. Kids in gangs are still kids, regardless of how sick or violent they are - the point is that they are killed with guns. 2. Also to Wendy - Yes, I am sure that you could get the statistics on traffic, poison, bike, and any other causes of death in the United States and other countries, but what difference would it make? You might find that there are serious problems with those issues as well, but we need to compare apples with apples. Bike safety, traffic safety, and chemical storage can be debated on their own. The bottom line is that too many kids are killed by firearms every year. 3. Canadians are allowed to own guns, under stricter controls. Hunting is, and always has been, a popular pastime, but hunting is done with rifles and shotguns, not with concealed handguns. Handguns are strictly controlled in their purchase, possession, storage, transportation, and use. Canadians historically did not have the same access to guns as our neighbours to the south, mostly BECAUSE of the problems that were seen in the American West. Canada is a much younger country, and learned lessons by watching the growing pains as the west was developed. Right to Bear Arms was never entrenched in our constitution, and the handgun culture never really got started. I too wonder if it is too late to turn things back in the USA. I really hope it isn't, because there are way to many tragedies happening every day as a result of firearms, and we have learned from bitter experience that the Canadian problems of today are American problems of yesterday - we just take a while to catch up. This is one case where I really want it to stay south of the border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBEMT Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 I don't think taking away those rights 100% is the answer, but I do agree that something needs to be done. Explain to me how we prevent criminals from lying on permit applications (which is what Cho in order to purchase these weapons), stealing guns, and buying them off the black market, and I might agree with you. Until then, people with ill will will always have guns. The difference will be that if American liberals have their way, said criminals will be the only ones to have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imagine89 Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 It's the right of people in this country to carry firearms. The vast majority of crimes are committed by those who do not have a legal weapon, but obtained one on the black market, or by some other questionable means. I'm a big believer in the constitution, and I'm sorry if I can't condone the fact that everytime something bad happens we, the law abiding citizens, seem to have to give up another of our diminishing number of rights. (See the patriot act) Whether it is legal or not, psychopaths will always get their hands on guns. You can find a study to prove anything, but the truth is, different societies function differently. Just because Candada has been very successful with anti-gun laws does not mean the US will benefit from the same laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicNorth Posted April 21, 2007 Share Posted April 21, 2007 Explain to me how we prevent criminals from lying on permit applications (which is what Cho in order to purchase these weapons), stealing guns, and buying them off the black market, and I might agree with you. There are three ways for criminals to get guns - you have mentioned them all. Lying on permit applications - What - you just have to fill in a permit and they believe you? Doesn't one have to prove the accuracy of the information on the application? Don't they actually check on the information written on the paper? It takes a substantial amount of time to get a Firearm Acquisition Certificate in this country - the forms are checked over and information is verified before you can buy a gun of any type, or even ammunition! Stealing guns - who are they stealing them from? Why, from dealers and from registered legitimate owners. The more legal guns out there, the more choice criminals are going to have. Need a gun - go shopping in suburbia! If you keep your handgun in your bedside table, any ordinary burglar is going to find it, and even if he doesn't want it, it goes to the next area of the marketplace. The black market - Here it is. This is the place where most of these felons get their weapons. The black market depends upon the legitimate owners and dealers to supply the inventory. With the additional security measures in place in the US since 9-11 it is increasingly difficult to contemplate importing them. The question would be "Why bother, when there are so many available here already, and more are being produced and sold in this atmosphere of fear?" Eliminating the handguns in the United States looks like an impossible task. Controlling and restricting them is a long term, difficult, and unpopular solution. You have two choices - continue with the spiralling cycle of handgun proliferation, or slowly begin to reduce the use and availability of these tools. No magic solution - only a long and painful bunch of small steps towards an improvement to a situation that everyone, on both sides, says is intolerable at the present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scratrat Posted April 22, 2007 Author Share Posted April 22, 2007 There are three ways for criminals to get guns - you have mentioned them all. Lying on permit applications - What - you just have to fill in a permit and they believe you? Doesn't one have to prove the accuracy of the information on the application? Don't they actually check on the information written on the paper? It takes a substantial amount of time to get a Firearm Acquisition Certificate in this country - the forms are checked over and information is verified before you can buy a gun of any type, or even ammunition! I can tell you everyone is different in the States and therein lies the problem. I know I said it before, but NJ is very strict. You need to go to the police department first, to be fingerprinted and have photo ID to do so. The state police then do, what I considered, a thorough background investigation including mental health facilities. If you have ever been seen at any facility for anything psychiatric, including depression, no permit to you. It's still a failed system, since there are obviously illegal guns in New Jersey. But they also have strict laws. Caught with a handgun thats loaded, jail time (unless at the range). Can't even transport one loaded in your trunk. Florida is nothing in comparison. Valid drivers license and a fee and you've got a gun. scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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