Mandatory lunch break a good idea?

[DwayneEMTP]

Hey all,

I've heard people argue for and against mandatory lunch breaks for EMS...thoughts on the article below?

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53660

EU rule: Ambulance crews

take break while man dies

Heart-attack victim forced to wait 20 minutes,

although emergency vehicles 5 minutes away

5:00 p.m. Eastern

© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

When a 73-year-old Londoner collapsed at a betting shop on New Year's Eve afternoon, his luck had run out – thanks to European Union rules that required two nearby ambulance crews to be kept on their 30-minute breaks.

A paramedic arrived by rapid-response car in a matter of minutes to the shopping center where the unnamed senior was stricken and began caring for the man. Witnesses say he made desperate calls on his cell phone in an attempt to have an ambulance dispatched.

The London Ambulance Service, which has launched an investigation of the incident, confirmed that two crews were on a mandated break at a station five minutes away from the shopping center, but they could not be disturbed, the London Daily Mail reported.

Under rules mandated by the European Working Time Directive, adopted in December, ambulance crews working shifts between six and 10 hours long are allocated a rest break of 30 minutes and cannot be sent out on 999 calls – the UK equivalent to 911 emergencies in the U.S.

LAS dispatched an ambulance from a neighboring community, but it did not arrive for over 20 minutes after the original emergency phone call.

"We dispatched a rapid-response car, which arrived at the shopping center within eight minutes at 1:30 pm, the member of staff being able to start treatment immediately," a spokesman for LAS said. "An ambulance was sent at 1:32 pm after it became available from attending another incident and, according to our records, arrived at the shopping center at 1:41 pm and at the patient a few minutes later.

"The man stopped breathing shortly afterwards and efforts were made to resuscitate him both at the scene and on the way to North Middlesex Hospital, where he arrived at approximately 2:10 pm."

"It is disgusting," said eyewitness Sheldon Trevatt of Edmonton. "The man worked all his life paying his national insurance. If that ambulance had been there earlier I think his life would have been saved.”

Does this change anyone's mind? Could it be done, only differently?

Have a great day!

Dwayne

[KE5EHI]

I understand the need to give crews a break on long shifts, especially when they are running their butts off. But last time I checked, I was in this industry to help people, not complain because I didn't get a lunch break. As with most rules, they are put in place because some/enough people complained about a situation to have it changed. We get 20 minute "breaks" here, but if the system drops, they'll pull you off break. If you are closer to a life-threatening emergency, they'll pull you off of break. I don't have a problem with that. We work 12 hour shifts and don't have stations (we use SSM), so that can make for a long shift. When it's busy all night, we don't get breaks. We're just used to it.

Do I think what happened in the article was wrong? Yes. I would think an EMS service has an obligation, especially in the case of a cardiac arrest, to send the closest unit possible, even if they have to interrupt their break. Cheeseburger or a man's life? Not a hard decision in my opinion. Cheeseburger can be re-heated or re-made. I person can't after a short period of time.

A human can go about three weeks without food before it dies. A brain can go about three minutes before it begins to die.

[OzMedic]

Do I think what happened in the article was wrong? Yes. I would think an EMS service has an obligation, especially in the case of a cardiac arrest, to send the closest unit possible, even if they have to interrupt their break. Cheeseburger or a man's life? Not a hard decision in my opinion. Cheeseburger can be re-heated or re-made. I person can't after a short period of time.

A human can go about three weeks without food before it dies. A brain can go about three minutes before it begins to die.

I see two sides to this argument. Yes it was unfortunate the way this case went down, however, the service involved knowing the these particular meal awards were in place was negligent in not having extra crews in the area available to respond. Yes we can go without food and reheat our cheeseburger however is that the way we want to value ourselves and our long term health? Irregular and poor quality meals are going to kill us just as much as what ever killed the bloke who arrested in this particular case the difference being that he probably had a choice when and what to eat. I think a lot of the time our organisations and Joe Public play on our good will too often to our ultimate detriment. We seem to have a problem with pushing for any condition that carries the risk of costing a life if it is poorly managed by our organisation instead of hold them to account for not being prepared. Unfortunately like most things in this world not much happens until someone dies. A classic example is a service I worked for years ago got by understaffed for years by calling the guys before their shifts and from home despite the pleas from staff that they could not keep it up. Staff got together and decided they were not going to answer a call unless they were on shift, management still done nothing for a few weeks until one day guess what? Yep, cardiac arrest and nobody to send! All of a sudden staff goes from 7 full time to 12 full time overnight. It sucks but it's not our fault! I bet in this case management steps up and sorts something out as well, after the horse has bolted of course! The main message is that we should not be made to feel guilty about being awarded better work conditions, it is the duty of management to implement strategies to deal with these developments as they arise.

[ukcanuck]

From the coal face that is facing this PR and having to deal with it

We don't like the fact that we have to have a thirty min break in the middle of out shift when we either agree to respond and get £20 if we do get a call (about US$40) or we can go undisturbed and get thirty mins down time.

Fact is we do not get paid for our meal breaks now which is a detail being missed by the press. We work 11 1/2 hours in 12. Before the current agreement we worked and got paid during our meal breaks. 12 hours paid and 12 hours worked that seems fair. The gov't brought this in and I for one would rather work for 11 1/2 hours eating as I go and go home earlier.

But I am not about to work while I am not being paid. If the system wants the cover they should pay for it. The NHS wants us to give them free cover so they can get more out of us without paying. The NHS runs on the GAG principle

Goodwill by staff

Ambition of staff or

Guilt felt by staff

It is not as clear cut as the article makes out that the crews are standing down while death and mayhem is going on but the crews are just as uncomfortable but where do we draw the line in the sand about what we do in our time. Unlike most adverts we see for the states we do not get time off for CME or extra courses, most extra courses have been cancelled, leave is being refused, vacancies are not being filled, and we are expected to more and more in time let alone out of time. Pressure is put on staff to become staff responders (responding from home while off and getting a call out rate) to show committment to the service to get ahead and meanwhile we are going to more and more inappropriate calls because the gov't refuses to bill the punters when they call because they can't find their remote control.

Its great over here in the NHS anyone want to swap ?????? please........

[DwayneEMTP]

From the coal face that is facing this PR and having to deal with it...

We don't like the fact that we have to have a thirty min break in the middle of out shift when we either agree to respond and get £20 if we do get a call (about US$40) or we can go undisturbed and get thirty mins down time.

ukcunuck, it wasn't my intention to put you on the hot seat, or even claim that this was an employee failure issue,...I just meant to generate debate on the subject.

If I understand you correctly above, you say that you don't like to have a non-paid lunch, that you can choose to take £20 and respond (during a lunch break I'm guessing)...I don't see the problem? Why doesn't everyone take the money and respond then?

Honest question, I'm not judging you or your system (Hell, I don't know that much about our system), I'm just curious...

Good luck with your labor issues....

Dwayne

[ukcanuck]

The only reason you got a hot answer - sorry - is because it is a VERY large issue over here and it gets peoples noses out of joint quickly. No offense taken and none meant in the answer.

Easy answer to your question is that the £20 is only when we go disturbable and get a call. If no call then no money and the service has got free cover out of you. Seems easy as you got your break anyways but it comes down to a principle issue in that the service knew this was coming and just figured we would all cover the breaks without getting paid and get stood down at the high priority base so the figures look better.

Also the £20 solution is only in my service - even though the agreement is national each service have different solutions and not all of them are as good as ours some are no pay at all and others are a lump sum annually.

The gov't refuses to pay us for our meal breaks and so we are in the situation we now have.

Also throw into the pot that the vast majority of the calls we get when we are on break are the calls that have not been covered by other crews so they end up being lower grade headache and abdo pains.

I just wish that the system would go back to paid for 12 hours respond for 12 hours eat when you can - as unhealthy as it is for you but most of us knew that when we joined

an oldtimer once told me that you are a poor ambulance person if you can't get a coffee some where and a bite to eat when you need one in your shift

we will have to wait and see what happens as it gets interesting as just in my service we merged with two others so we now have three solutions to the issue just in one service - like I said anyone want a swap please!!!!!!

[paramaniac]

Very hot topic this, essentially this meal break issue was thrust upon us, the vast majority of frontline staff rejected the principle but were overruled.

This whole mess is completely attributable to NHS management lacking the foresight to prepare for these mandatory working directive rules. They knew it was coming, yet have singularly failed to increase capacity to cover the eventuality.

Essentially, all the management have done is save money by docking 30 minutes per shift from our paypacket, yet still want the full 12 hours of cover.

[DwayneEMTP]

ukcanuck, your response was very appropriate! No offense taken here, in fact, I thank you for taking the time to answer so thoroughly!

paramaniac, ukcanuck,

It sounds like your situations suck! I'd imagine the management is beating you over the head with this press...Given your situation, man, I don't know what the hell is best to do. Answer the calls and nothing changes, in fact it most likely gets worse for you in the long run. Don't answer and this situation arises and the unwashed masses believe you would trade a life for a lunch break.

I wish you good luck, with hope that this is resolved well, and soon!

Dwayne

[paramaniac]

ukcanuck, your response was very appropriate! No offense taken here, in fact, I thank you for taking the time to answer so thoroughly!

paramaniac, ukcanuck,

It sounds like your situations suck! I'd imagine the management is beating you over the head with this press...Given your situation, man, I don't know what the hell is best to do. Answer the calls and nothing changes, in fact it most likely gets worse for you in the long run. Don't answer and this situation arises and the unwashed masses believe you would trade a life for a lunch break.

I wish you good luck, with hope that this is resolved well, and soon!

Dwayne

Spot on there, the public are screaming blue murder, already reports are coming in of staff being abused & harassed over response times.

[BoCat9]

I'll put it like my boss told my coworkers and me at a meeting. "I would like for you all to have a lunch break and we will try to make that happen, but sometimes it is not possible." We were also told to bring something small with us. Have a pack of nabs or even bring a sandwich with you. It will help tide you over until you can get something more substantial. Only worry I have is when my partner is a diabetic and we don't get a chance to stop.

Peace...