Use of Tazers by the Police

[SSG G-man]

I do not think Police should base how they handle a situation on "PR". They should base it on training, experience and officer saftey. Not necessarily in that order.

Sarge

[Dustdevil]

I do not think Police should base how they handle a situation on "PR". They should base it on training, experience and officer saftey. Not necessarily in that order.

Very true. Unfortunately, that's how it is in today's world.

Hell, even this war is being fought based upon PR concerns instead of training, experience, and soldier safety. Welcome to the pussified world.

[SSG G-man]

Ain't that the F'in truth!!

[AnthonyM83]

I do not think Police should base how they handle a situation on "PR". They should base it on training, experience and officer saftey. Not necessarily in that order.

If there's multiple options and it's not an immediate situation (rather on that drags on for several minutes as in this incident), then it's definitely something to consider while on scene. And it's also an officer safety issue with crowd gathering to hang around trying a technique that didn't work already.

[JPINFV]

Here's the problem. You can't just let him sit there. You can't just let him go. You can't shoot him or beat him with a stick (no matter how tempting). If he was draged out by the police then you would still have the students complaining about it and you would subject the police to injuries and still subject the subject to injuries. Until they have telekinesis, I don't think that there was a better option besides the suspect obeying the officers.

[AnthonyM83]

Here's the problem. You can't just let him sit there. You can't just let him go. You can't shoot him or beat him with a stick (no matter how tempting). If he was draged out by the police then you would still have the students complaining about it and you would subject the police to injuries and still subject the subject to injuries. Until they have telekinesis, I don't think that there was a better option besides the suspect obeying the officers.

Doubt it. I've been on campus several times recently and students' wonder why he wasn't just dragged out if he was just going limp. For them that makes sense far from looking violent or brutal...just FYI.

There were no protests when officers pepper sprayed/tear gassed students over running the streets and setting trash can fires.

[KSEMT122]

The bottom line as I see it is this. Police Officers should not have to worry about how something might "look" to others who are not involved. However half of our training is designed to make it "look good" to the public, often at our expense. The unfortunate reality is that Officers have, and will continue to die because they spend that extra second, wondering how something might look. Another unfortunate fact is that many Police Departments these days will discipline an Officer because something "looked" bad when in fact it was well within policy. I was on the receiving end of a complaint for pulling out my pepper spray and shaking the can, when I was outnumbered 7 to 1 in a remote area and a large male jumped out of the backseat and acted in an aggressive and strange manner towards myself. He never got sprayed, but I received a SUSTAINED complaint, because "the guy felt threatened", LOL I said "And that's a problem how? That was my point, was to make him feel threatened and stand down" So to address the person who said it just didn't look good, Walk a mile in our shoes. You probably wouldn't make it 5 steps if all you're worried about is how something looks. And to reanswer the ORIGINAL question, Tazer's have not been directly linked to ANY deaths. Those deaths have usually been attributed to pre existing cardiac conditions further complicated by improper restraint.

[AnthonyM83]

I PMed the following to KSEMT122 and he suggested I should have posted it in the main forum to clarify my position, so I will, now:

Hey,

So, what I really want to say, but don't want to type it is that I think in my best opinion (and we'll never know even after investigation is over) is that it seems like suspect was being a jackass and trying to take the pain to make his point and the officer was tasering till he gave in. Not for a tactical purpose, but to show the suspect that he WILL submit. And I'm okay with that...UNTIL it start hurting public image.

If it's an emergency situation, public image shouldn't cross your mind really...but in a long dragged out situation like this where several officers have had time to come on scene and deliberate, it's not the time to stay and play. Load and go with the suspect. Pain compliance "come-along" lock and walk him out, or drag him, whatever. It's an officer safety issue to continue the game when a crowd is gathering.

And the reason I think it was a "game" or "contest" is because I doubt the officer really couldn't comprehend that the taser wasn't doing the job. I have more faith in the officer's tactical intelligence. Contempt of cop situation is more understandable and forgiveable. I know me writing this sounds like I'm anti cop, but I assure you I'm not. I bust my ass to make sure cops get top response time and care when we get an officer down call (like last night) and I wouldn't hesitate to put my life on the line for any cop.

Maybe I'm just a bit too liablity/image minded b/c of how I was raised since age 14 by the PD I volunteered, then worked at. Even during fights, from time my hands started toward suspect to time hand reached the suspect, I was expected to review as fast as possible in my mind: law, caselaw, if/how I could articulate my use of force in court, nearest backup unit, who it was, number of backup units, who watch commander was and any special rules he had, dept UoF policy and if it qualified, and what exactly I was going to be doing once my hands made contact. And this is me as a kid in critical situations with time to make split second decision...so, I know that several officers with several minutes can make better decisions.

But then again maybe there's something going on that wasn't released to public (since we weren't there)...but I don't like using that reasoning ALL the time b/c then we'd pretty much never get to review situations for critiquing purposes.

Respectfully (though blunt),

Anthony

[NREMT-Basic]

I reviewed this video and reports about it so many times i feel like I have been tazered. But here are somethings to think about.

One of the reasons a tazer is used is to incapacitate the subject into compliance. For the officers, teh only acceptible compliance was the subject standing up. A difficult task after being tazed 6 times. And yes, I listened with ear phones and counted six tazer deployments based on the neat little jolting/sizzling sounds. If you want him to comply, stop rendering him incapable of doing so. Do you think that the officers repeated deployment of the tazer may have been egged on by the student yelling "here's your f'ing Patriot Act."

There were enough officers on scene that the tazer was unnecessary. I have examined enough footage of tazer depluyments to see that often they appear that the officer would rather use the tazer rather than run the risk of scuffing their boots or ripping the name tags of their shirts. The appropriate use of force here was an arm bar carry.

These officers acted stupidly. No other word for it. Beause they wish to continue to taze the subject, they put themselves in the very real risk of falling subject to mob action. Their reaction was just stupid. No other word for it.

While it may irk a policemen to not have a subject produce ID when requested to do so, thats not a reason to ramp up the use of force. Notice the police also did not identify themselves when requested to, which they are also required by law to do. He he OOPS. In fact, if you listen with some good audio equipment, you can hear the officer with the tazer threatening the girl asking for name and badge number by asking her if she wanted to get tazed too.

What were all the other officers doing standing around..I think I counted six. That pretty much negates the use of a tazer when a subject is unarmed.

I have also found through security training through a personal protection provider and having been on many police ride alongs, the number of times that an officer will yell "stop resisting" or "stand up or your going to get it again" is directly perportional to the number of bystanders and or news media filming the event. Or in this case a student with a video capable cell phone. The usual request to stop resisting when no bystander are present is made by twisting the wrist as far as it will go, using the thumb as a handle and putting the knee or boot in the middle of the subjects back or neck. Having a LEO put his full weight down on you makes it difficult to roll over, comply with requests to put your arms behind your back or pretty much anything else.

Finally, the officer doing the tazing has been cited by at least two different police agencies, including the Santa Barbara PD and UCLA police just last year, for the excessive use of force. Unfortunately, (and my father was an Officer) there still exists the Blue Wall of Silence and such problematic officers are often allowed to stay on the job regardless of their actions in clear violation of departmental regulations govering the use of force or the compiled state statutes dealing with the same.

I have a great deal of respect for police officers. But anyway you look at it, this gang blew it. At least the tazed student can now go to college for free and probably not have to work for a couple of years once he graduates.

[KSEMT122]

Sorry in advance folks, I can't get the quotes to work properly, so you'll have to pick your way through this post.

NREMT-BASIC wrote:

I have examined enough footage of tazer depluyments to see that often they appear that the officer would rather use the tazer rather than run the risk of scuffing their boots or ripping the name tags of their shirts.

My Reponse:

I must say that is true. Think about it, using a Tazer does usually prevent a scuffle that usually results in the Officer and the suspect being injured, sometimes severely. The idea of the Tazer is to eliminate or signifigantly reduce the amount of hands on the officer has to do. Studies at most departments show a decrease in officer injuries by in most cases 85% or higher in the first year of deployment.

NREMT-BASIC wrote:

Notice the police also did not identify themselves when requested to, which they are also required by law to do.

My Response:

That is not true. Police Officers DO have to be identified as Police Officers, which can be done by verbalization, or in this case wearing a marked uniform. There is no law that requires a Police Officer to individually identify himself, although I would think most departments would discipline an officer internally for refusing to do so.

NREMT-Basic wrote:

Unfortunately, (and my father was an Officer) there still exists the Blue Wall of Silence and such problematic officers are often allowed to stay on the job regardless of their actions in clear violation of departmental regulations govering the use of force or the compiled state statutes dealing with the same.

My Response:

In some cases the so called Blue Wall does still exist. But what you may not know is that is hardly EVER exists in big departments anymore. Trust me, Bigger departments are the first to hang their officers out to dry, smaller departments tend to, in some cases still have a Blue Wall.

I was defending the notion that Police Officers should have to worry about Image while doing their jobs. I do agree after reviewing this video several times that the Officer doing the tazing should be severely disciplined if not fired. I do believe this student was Tazed properly 1 time. And that was the first time, he was showing signs of active aggression, and that much is evident by listening to him on the tape. After that initial Tazering, they should have moved in and subdued him, not stand around like a bunch of punks trying to provoke the man to get tazed again.