rock_shoes Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 However, you've yet to produce any reliable evidence other than anecdote and opinion. You are free to argue, but bring something evidence based to the table. I've linked what little I can find and I understand another study has recently been published with similar results in BS educated nurses with specialty certification. I think you already know anecdotal and observational is all you're going to get for the most part. It's not something that has been well studied as of yet. What I can point you towards as an example are the results from reviews of UK Emergency Care Practitioner programs. http://minney.org/Publications/SfH_ECP_32pp_Measuring_the_Benefits.pdf Sent from my A500 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbare Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) Yes, I have a good idea. My point being, any educational threshold we currently mandate is rather arbitrary unless there is good literature out there. We need to convince a well established culture that a different approach is required. I will point to an extreme example of what a physician thinks. While it's old, I have not seen a statement of retraction on said website: http://www.fd-doc.com/2000Hours.htm How would you convince this person otherwise if he was your medical director? Anecdote and arbitrary position statements are not likely to work. Edit: "While" Edited June 17, 2012 by chbare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwiology Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 That statement highly disgusts me. It may have been more acceptable 15 years ago but not now, hell 15 years ago we required a two year Diploma for Advanced Care Officer (Paramedic). The author is an osteopathic general practitioner, not the most qualified person to speak on matters concerning Paramedic education Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbare Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 He is actually a family practice physician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asysin2leads Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I consider myself a pretty intelligent individual. I also think that my 2 year associate's degree program, coupled with many, many clinical and field preceptorships left me with just barely enough knowledge to adequately care for the critically ill or injured. Maybe I'm just neurotic. I remember after my first field delivery going and enrolling in an NNRP course on my own time with my own money because I realized there was a gap in my education. I mean, if you feel comfortable being the highest medical authority in ever changing, less than ideal circumstances dealing with things that would make an ER doctor start phoning some friends, then fine, good on you. I guess the fire service is just that much superior than I am. At least that's what they keep telling me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Plain Ruff Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Let's add on to what Asys just said. Your first field delivery resulted in a critical newborn. You are fresh out of medic school which was 7 months long. You also have a very very sick momma. Are you prepared to take care of both mother and baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwiology Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 He is actually a family practice physician. Same diff, what you call a family physician or family practice we call GP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbare Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Yes; however, the term GP does not apply in the United States in a "traditional" context as it went away in the 1970's as family practice required a residency and board certification. Semantics perhaps; however, this entire thread is in the context of United States educational standards. Feel free to educate us again on the New Zealand educational standards for EMS and other medical providers; however, my underlying question of evidence remains the primary concern. Is there literature that compares several outcomes across the health/illness and age spectrum between providers of different countries? Is this even a possible comparison? I am not sure, but I would honestly like to see how outcomes change when comparing medics in the United States to their foreign counterparts. Another study with weak evidence that suggests certification and undergrad education improves outcomes: http://ebn.bmj.com/content/early/2011/12/20/ebnurs.2011.100228.short Again, I am not sure how well this translates to paramedics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chbare Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Just wanted to add: I'm not trying to be a smart arse and I'm all about for looking at other countries and their educational models but what I am really pushing for is the evidence used to create these educational models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillKaneEMT Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Regarding the "Dr. T." link Chbare, I personally would be uncomfortable with the "3 hours of didactic training and 6 to 10 hours of practical training (on a manikin and then real patients" he suggests for advanced airway management. I dunno, I've only worked a half dozen als shifts thus far (typically the more experienced basics get those unless someone wants a day off or calls in sick) so I haven't seen medics working in the field to any great extent, but even if my instructor were some sort of superhuman medic I'd feel pretty nervous about trying to intubate someone after after 9-16 hours worth of practice and instruction. I don't feel qualified to determine how long medic school should be in the U.S., my area has multiple courses ranging from 8 months to 2 years. I will say that I'm going with one of the longer courses simply because I'd be more comfortable in the rig as a medic with closer to 2000 hours training than I would if I had 1060 hours. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible to train a qualified medic in 7 months. I personally haven't had the education as yet to make a reasonable case against it. I just don't plan to go that route. I've run into several random things on calls, a couple of which I discussed in chat here, in which I simply had no clue what the problem was, how it could be solved, what could have caused it... I'm all for more education. Particularly since our als shifts are typically one medic/one basic per rig. I truly have no desire to get to a patient and be completely at a loss as to how to treat said patient. I've seen a medic with that look on his face and it was a little scary. I'm about halfway through Marieb's Human Anatomy and Physiology right now and I plan to have it read cover to cover at least twice before August. Let me reiterate though, this is just me. I have to say, this is a very interesting topic. I checked it to find some helpful hints for myself for this fall but this sort of debate really makes one think. I've been searching for the types of studies you're looking for Chbare but the pickings are decidedly slim:/ Anyhow, I need to crash out soon since I'm working the early shift tomorrow. I look forward to checking this topic again though. Later folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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