Thoughts and ideas about existence.

[emtannie]

We are here to exist and are now smart enough to make the place better than the way we found it, through design, invention, or its people. It is when we start to tag ourselves as being more supreme than others, when we tag our "evolved" brains into something mighty, that we lose focus on family, community (globally speaking), and simply co existing and enjoying life. It is when we introduce all these other superfluous ideas of existence that the world actually becomes a darker, less enjoyable, more unfulfilling life. When you live for today, you enjoy every minute of it and appreciate and respect all it has to offer you. When you spend too much time planning your "next life" you are only missing out on all the great and wonderful things right here, right now in this life. A very sad state indeed...

I like your post, AK...

The last couple lines caught my eye.

Although I think that most who believe in a form of religion spend time considering "the next life," I think most do not spend "too much time" planning it. I absolutely agree that you are right, in that those that do spend too much time planning for the next life, miss out on the here and now.

I do think that those who believe in a next life are looking at our existance on a bigger scale than those who don't. Is it right? I dunno... Is it wrong? I dunno. If it makes them behave in a way where they are trying their best to do good, and make the world a better place, I am ok with it. If their religion makes them behave in a way where they do harm to others, and where they do not make the world a better place, then they should be ashamed of themselves, not just through the eyes of their religion, but through the eyes of the human race.

Good for you for being able to raise your children to see the consequences of their actions, and teaching them that they can control the way they feel and act towards others - many parents, both religius and not religious, have been unable to do it. I do not think the fact that you have been able to do it has so much to do with your religious beliefs or lack thereof, but of a desire to raise your children to be useful members of society, and that you and your wife have spend uncountable hours working toward that goal.

My dad was a very religious man. He used to say "if you spend your days counting your blessings, you won't have time to complain about your problems." He spent his life doing his best to raise his family to become useful members of society. He worked very hard to provide for us, and to show us that life is what you make of it, and that helping others is one of the greatest things you can do. If people see his actions as tarnished because he was religious, so be it - I prefer to think that he lived every day to its fullest, knowing that life is always too short, and that the kindness he showed others still has a positive benefit even now, after he has been dead for many years. I would also like to think that he taught me to try to do my best and make the world a better place.

I would hope that people do good things because it makes them feel good, and makes others feel good, rather than out of a sense of duty where they get no joy from it. AK, you are teaching your children that selflessness brings more joy - that by coming back out of the bedroom with a more positive outlook is not only good for them, but for those around them. Too many parents, both religious and non, allow their kids to grow into selfish "me me me" people.

[chbare]

Another valid point to consider is the possibility that there is no higher reason or purpose for our existence. Consider the half life of a free neutron. You get about 10 or so minutes out of any given free neutron. Is there any purpose for this action? None, as far as we can objectively appreciate. Yet this and many other actions that govern our existence so to speak do not appear to have any purpose other than randomly smashing into one and other and creating certain results. Our existence could just as easily be a statistic and nothing more.

While it is my personal bias to reject such a thought, should we not consider as many views as possible?

Take care,

chbare.

[akflightmedic]

Thank Annie, but I will agree to disagree.

It has everything to do with being non religious as I never threaten my child with thoughts of damnation, I never try to teach because Sky Daddy said so. I think that element is very important as it instills in the children a sense of personal responsibility and accountability. Sure I have the all powerful domain over my children while they are little and they do what I say, but there will come a time when that influence is not as cherished or valued for a few years (teens-20s) and then they will return seeking the wisdom again. But my point is they were taught from day 1, it is all because of how they choose to be, no threats, no promises, simply it is just the right thing to do.

You do have to give them a sense of community, sense of family and global awareness otherwise you are simply on the other end of the spectrum of the extreme fundamentalists who try to shield their children from the world while instilling "the word". Finding that balance can be difficult and scary but more for the fundys than me because I have nothing to fear. I am here to live and do well but if I have to worry about every single thought or action which may send me into eternal peril, how fun is that? Where is the love and forgiveness in that?

There are good people and bad people of both religious and non religious. Always have been, always will be. When people understand that fact as well and realize there will be no massive change, the world will become a much nicer place. I didn't want to steal this thread and turn it into a religious train but for now everyone has been respectful and I think a belief system is important to the discussion.

While your Dad sounds like an admirable stand up guy, I think he was that way naturally. Remove the religion from his life and is he suddenly bad? No, he had certain values, morals, principles instilled in him long before he was uber religious and that means he was simply a nice guy. Him being religious was a bonus to those who knew him of the same belief.

For example, I am sure people may have said Wow look at him, he is such a good Christian man. Look at how he lives, this is a fine example of how I should be or how my sons should be, etc. But what we know is it is not the religious beliefs which made him the way he was. Therefore, religion is getting free advertisement and credit for this man being the good man he naturally was. This is what disappoints me within society. I am often amazed at how people's attitudes change once they sit and listen to my beliefs. They are shocked that I can be a caring guy who has done a lot of good and raised a nice family without having a sky daddy. I have even lost friends and unfortunately (my parents) over my beliefs. It is amazing what we attribute to a belief system which truly is nothing when compared to the person underneath it.

When I talked about people wasting time on the next life instead of this one, yes again there are those who take time to appreciate the world for what it is but I was speaking more broadly about all the time wasted in rituals, meetings, groups instead of simply getting out in the world and experiencing it. There are those who do their weekly duty and then they feel godly and better than those who did not do their duty. They are also quick to remind others how they do their duty to pressure those who do not. It is a lot of time wasted on one upmanship in the race for eternal life, instead of realizing we have it all right here, right now.

[emtannie]

LOL AK, you are right - we will have to agree to disagree... sort of...

I guess I was lucky - I was never threatened with damnation, as a child or otherwise.

When I decided I wasn't going to go to church, my dad said that was my decision. He didn't pressure me, he didn't tell me I was going to hell, he said I was free to choose, he never banned me from his house or judged me.

I guess where I have problems is the generalizations that get made... there is a danger in generalizing an entire group. For example, saying that religious people threaten their children with damnation is as general as saying that non-religious people don't raise their children to have values. Neither generalization is true. Although there are some in both groups that the comment applies to, you cannot blanket the entire group with the statement.

I agree that the fundamentalist or extremist groups do themselves and their families a HUGE disservice by not exposing them to other people, other religions, and other cultures. I have always been interested in their version of theology - how can you know that your beliefs are right, when you don't even know what else is out there?

I am also interested in your comment "time wasted in rituals, meetings, groups..." is it truly wasted? How is that more wasted than time sitting in a bar drinking with friends, or playing ball with some buddies? Different venue, but still a social gathering.. If that is what they want to do with their time, so be it... Now, if that time is spent and they don't get out during the rest of their day/week (life), and experience the rest of the world, then absolutely, I agree with you. They are not experiencing the rest of the world, and they are sheltering themselves too much.

I think that there are two things that cause problems between religious and non-religious people... Each group thinking that they are somehow "better" than the other, and each group thinking in generalizations about the other. Instead of lumping people into "I have a problem with religious people" or "I have a problem with non-religious people" I think we all need to look at others as individuals. If they are religious, so what? If they aren't, so what? If they have a tattoo of goth barbie on their ass, so what? (I had to put that in, just for Dwayne) Do they treat you and others the way they want to be treated? Isn't that all that matters?

[akflightmedic]

I had lost my train of thought earlier and just hit submit knowing you would respond and trigger what I was forgetting.

A point I was going to make was individually, people of faith or no faith are ok on this level. It is when they get together collectively (as in the groups I mentioned) where they elevate themselves to a special status at which time a strong demarcation beings to occur between "us" and "them" which then leads to all the issues I have problems with which I alluded to in my first post. It is when we make ourselves "better than" others when the issues begin...make sense?

[emtannie]

It is when we make ourselves "better than" others when the issues begin...make sense?

As one of my favorite medics says ... "abso-frickin-lutely!" (ok, he doesn't say it quite like that, but the site censor would just **** it out anyways..)

So, then I wonder... the majority of posts on this thread follow the "we are here to try to make the world a better place." Are people in EMS alone in this, or does the general population think the same way? And, if the general population thinks the same way, why do we get into these "I am better than you" situations? What is it about us that always makes us want to be better than someone else, even though that contradicts the part of us that wants to make the world a better place?

Then it makes my brain hurt, and then I like chbare's post, because then I don't have to think...