Save 1-2 million patients in 2009 ??

[crotchitymedic1986]

Ever heard of the FAA -- I think they make those self-sufficient crews do alot of things that they do not or would rather not do. And why does the FAA do that, because when planes crash people die.

[crotchitymedic1986]

I do agree with you Dust, but I dont think we can make every EMS worker go back through school, nor do I believe you can mandate a huge training costs to small, rural, employers who are probably barely getting by as it is. If I could wave a magic wand and make every ems worker as competent as you, I would. But that is not feasible.

[JPINFV]

If you are documenting that a patient is refusing AMA, isnt it prudent to try to do everything to try to get them to go ?

Actually, no. There's a point where you reach diminishing returns. What's one more person telling a patient that they should get something checked out? I'll ask this question again, as well, since you didn't respond to it. A DNR is extremely similar to an AMA since it is the patient refusing aspects of medical care. Should an ambulance crew have to call a supervisor in order to honor a DNR since a few bad apples might treat a DNR as a "Do Not Treat?"

[WolfmanHarris]

Aside from a vague idea do you know what the FAA does while the plane is in the air? The FAA inspector doesn't call up during a flight to confirm a course change nor do they sit in the tower and confirm the ATC's direction. People are left to do their job's while working because if they're not, stuff goes wrong and people die. The FAA sets regulations, it isn't an all-seeing back seat driver of the airline industry. (Though we do have a lot to learn from the FAA in error reporting)

As per wiki (this is what they do)

The Federal Aviation Administration's major roles include:

* Regulating U.S. commercial space transportation

* Encouraging and developing civil aeronautics, including new aviation technology

* Issuing,suspending,or revoking pilot certificates

* Regulating civil aviation to promote safety, especially through local offices called Flight Standards District Offices

* Developing and operating a system of air traffic control and navigation for both civil and military aircraft

* Researching and developing the National Airspace System and civil aeronautics

* Developing and carrying out programs to control aircraft noise and other environmental effects of civil aviation

As per the FAA this is what they do

[web:afa635fe8e]http://www.faa.gov/about/mission/activities/[/web:afa635fe8e]

If you're going to draw a comparison, do it right and make sure it fits. In this case it doesn't.

[crotchitymedic1986]

Again you are confusing true AMA refusals where the patient actually does refuse, with refusals that are signed by patients who were talked out of going to the hospital by the EMS crew (like the cases in DC). I am talking about the patients that should go, but are told they will be ok to go by car, or go to their PCP the next day, and then they die.

[JPINFV]

^

Does the difference matter if your scheme doesn't differentiate between the two?

[crotchitymedic1986]

They also set policy as to what pilots/staff can and can not do; ie.... How many hours they can fly, how much rest they need, when and when the can not consume alcohol, and they mandate that near-misses and/or accidents be reported.

[HellsBells]

...and you never answered the question, how can a supervisor render a competent medical assessment via phone?

[crotchitymedic1986]

I am sorry spin, i didnt understand, could you please rephrase

[WolfmanHarris]

Your point is? The fact that they do this doesn't support your assertion that there needs to be a supervisor on scene for refusals.

I think maybe the waters are being muddied a bit from the original topic on refusals with the medical error stuff we're talking about in the DC thread. I agree the FAA has some concepts that could be copied into EMS, but it's not supporting your argument here.