Returning Vets to be fast tracked medics to ease shortage

[mandalox22]

I will not back down, I believe in what I say. I have been in the fire service and EMS service for 5 years. Which yes is not a long time, however, I didn't claim that I was the best after my basic class. I simply stated that if you can't do a good job as a basic, which is not just bandaging, you will never be a good EMT-I and P. I listen to so many of you complain and moan about basics and how all they do is bandage. This in its self is a lie. Before I was allowed to even advance in my system I had 1.5 years as a basic, riding with a service that runs calls. I was not just the driver either, I was lucky enough to have a captain, that was not afraid to let me take the reins and handle the pt. care until it went passed my level. Meaning that there was a medication needing to be pushed or something along those lines. I will not back down from my prior statements! I am not afraid of what I have said and you cannot scare me away. I see that like many of the other forums on this site, it is okay if you want to complain and agree with someone, but not okay if you have a different opinion. How can you learn anything from anyone if you are not willing to look at or accept other peoples views?

[spenac]

I will not back down, I believe in what I say. I have been in the fire service and EMS service for 5 years. Which yes is not a long time, however, I didn't claim that I was the best after my basic class. I simply stated that if you can't do a good job as a basic, which is not just bandaging, you will never be a good EMT-I and P. I listen to so many of you complain and moan about basics and how all they do is bandage. This in its self is a lie. Before I was allowed to even advance in my system I had 1.5 years as a basic, riding with a service that runs calls. I was not just the driver either, I was lucky enough to have a captain, that was not afraid to let me take the reins and handle the pt. care until it went passed my level. Meaning that there was a medication needing to be pushed or something along those lines. I will not back down from my prior statements! I am not afraid of what I have said and you cannot scare me away. I see that like many of the other forums on this site, it is okay if you want to complain and agree with someone, but not okay if you have a different opinion. How can you learn anything from anyone if you are not willing to look at or accept other peoples views?

Yes that is a good statement, your approach so far says you are not willing to do that.

We want different opinions but ohhh fire never mind.

[paramedicmike]

How can you learn anything from anyone if you are not willing to look at or accept other peoples views?

Good question!

An even better question would be why aren't you following your own advice? Are you afraid of what you're going to learn? Sounds to me like you are.

That's the thing, though. Most of us were in your shoes at one point. We opened our eyes, looked at other points of view, weighed the evidence presented to us and came to the conclusion that none of the beliefs we had (which for many here were similar to what you've posted) were, in fact, true.

So, basically, you're being hypocritical as you can't follow your own advice. Which is a shame. Because if you opened your eyes, listened to what the more experienced providers have to say, and weighed the evidence accordingly you'd come to the same conclusion we did.

Sounds to me like you're afraid of being marginalized. Too late for that. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Good luck to you anyway.

-be safe

[DwayneEMTP]

Shoot, I have no desire to chase you off. In fact I often take time to try and help new folks learn the ropes.

And you didn't simply express you're views, you stated facts, for example, "You'll never be a good medic without being a good basic first", without making any attempt to validate them. The word of a young lady, especially when putting forth the view of almost every petty, insecure, angry basic that walks through these doors, so to speak, isn't acceptable as 'evidence' that your point is valid.

The reason I question you clraim to be 'almost a medic' is simply that once you've had some college biology combined with paramedic theory, you come to understand that basic assessment, for 98% of the basics is an oxymoron. You simply don't have the education to truly assess anything beyond the few simple things you're taught in class. When you've actually taken the steps needed to become a paramedic you will see the foolishness of those statements.

Many of us had like ideas when we were new to this site, and EMS. You want a good laugh, look back at some of my first posts....they make me cringe now.

The problem, for me, with your posts is that you didn't present them to be discussed. You marched in explaining why all of us limp weenie medics had our ideas because "we are afraid". You chose to take the line that we are all a bunch of ignorant hose draggers that have nothing more to offer than our knee jerk reaction to your obviously brilliant, perfect ideas.

You chose to insult those here that are currently working in war zones. You insulted those that have made EMS their passion and career for their whole lives. And you did it all while putting forth ideas that you have no intelligent opinion on, or at least have shown, so far. You are simply parroting the same old crap that the tired, burned out, career basics have been spewing into your ears since you became a basic. They need reasons for failing and are making an attempt to give you all the reasons you need to fail as well.

I'm sure I speak for many here when I say that I'd like you to stay. I like your spirit, it's your closed minded, superior, arrogant attitude that is bringing you some negative responses at the moment.

Dwayne

[DwayneEMTP]

Manda, let me ask you something, in support of my previous post...

Do any of these statements ring a bell with you?

"Paramedics save lives, basics save paramedics."

"BLS before ALS!"

"Paramedics spend too much time screwing around on scene when what a patient really needs is a hospital!"

And your sentiment, "Hell, just because a medic has memorized a few drugs doesn't mean they're better than me! They have to call a basic if they need to put on a bandaid!"

"I know how to save lives, I don't need a bunch of college crap to teach me how to put on a non rebreather!"

All of these are common statements heard here weekly, and sometimes daily, from basics trying to figure out a way to make themselves equal in stature to a paramedic. I'm hoping that you can see the ignorance of these statements, though your previous posts have me wondering if many of them can be far from showing up in your future posts.

You've said we can't chase you off. I hope you are strong enough to prove that to be true.

You've said that you won't back down from your statements. That's where you and I are different. I don't need to back down from mine. I'll simply admit that they're wrong, and thank you for showing me where I was in error, if you should happen to do so.

The forums aren't about winning and losing (with few exceptions) they are about learning. If you should show me I'm wrong, thus making me smarter and stronger today than I was yesterday, that is a gift. Not an insult.

I look forward to your responses as I believe you have a lot to offer here.

Thanks for posting.

Dwayne

[Upton4785]

Dwayne and Dust (among others), you guys saw me at the end of my "basicgod" period, so to say I never fell into that would be a lie. Now, a little older and wiser, I do my best to help others along.

It's never a bad thing to have pride in your work, that's a given here at this site. Pride, however, does not mean assuming everyone on this site is a "Paragod" and all they care about are their own careers. I've only been here a short while and know that if I want advice from some very intelligent medics, I can come here and they are often glad to help me. That's what this site is for, hence the line "bringing us together" in the top bar.

I applaud you on your commitment to Paramedic school. It is certainly a large undertaking and it requires many, many hours of hard work. What I disagree with are your comments on the Basic class. You seem to believe that the Basic class is the hardest out of all of them, and that "any idiot" can pass the paramedic course. So am I to believe that if you score anything less than perfection, you are one of the "idiots" you seem to bash without hesitance? It's great you understand that the Basic class is nothing more than a stepping stone, but what you should understand is that in the grand spectrum of this career, it is a small stepping stone. There is still a lifetime of education waiting for you, if you choose to take it.

I apologize on behalf of the "larger than life head and attitude" paramedics you've worked with in the past that have soured your relationship with the level of emergency medicine you are trying very hard to become, because their attitude is most certainly not an accurate representation of the medics I've met and continue to meet, especially here on this site. Our goal as EMS providers should never be dissention in the ranks, but unity and the elevation of our profession.

And we do like it here when people feel strongly on a specific issue. In fact, it's one of the reasons I check in on this site so often. It's good to see that like me, there are some out there who aren't just doing this because their department requires it, they actually enjoy it. But when arguments lack substance, or if "facts" are thrown out that have no backing or no scientific or medical justification, then yes, we pounce on it. As it was explained to me, "it's not because we like to pick on you, we're trying to force you to rationalize your points, to clearly verbalize what you feel and more importantly, why you feel that way." It's easy to hide behind the cliches. It's hard to expose yourself, stand up for your beliefs and risk the onslaught. But doing this builds our respect for you.

To get back to the OP, I agree with what many have said. It does not make much sense to fast-track vets into a career that: 1. They may not be qualified to handle, especially one that puts the responsibility of saving lives in their hands, and 2. One that does not pay well and has a bruised image. A friend of mine recently got back from the Marines. He did everything a good soldier needs to do, including patching up some battered soldiers. He took the courses required of him to become a field medic, but when he came home, many of the topics in the Basic course were beyond him. If we really want to have vets in EMS, give them discounts on the classes, but they need to take them, just like us. Everyone doing this job needs to be on the same page in order to perform adequately, which means being held to the same standards as us lowly civies.

I'm not worried about my job. I'm worried about my profession.

Good luck to you, Manda. We're always here to help.

[DwayneEMTP]

Upton, you are a prime example of what's great about the City. I do remember some of your earlier posts, yet to date you have 33 posts, are a basic, and everything you write is worth reading. I've got a couple more posts than that, and am now a deified medic, yet about half of everything I say is rubbish.

You're young yet, but still no one here would think of referring to you, or eyedawn, or hell...a bunch of others as 'worthless'.

I'm going to paraphrase part of your post that I think is very significant (Assuming I didn't misunderstand, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth).

Basics are not inherently trash (Though many choose to be so), Medics are not Gods (Though some believe themselves to be so), but either way, it's not these attitudes than are important.

When all is said and done, it's strong, logical, passionate, sometimes angry debate, that allows us all to explore these issues in ways we haven't thought of before that wins the day.

Great post Upton. And as often happens, I should have said it more like you did my first time through. (Oh hell....as you can see I'm having a hard time with the 'paragods' are always right concept....I'll work on it.)

Dwayne

[Upton4785]

Yeah, dwayne, you're a medic now, start acting like one!

Thanks again.

[akflightmedic]

I have read all your posts, I wish you would have read mine. Obviously you glossed over them thinking you were digesting, but in fact you were only formulating your response and had already determined your position with no logical think through process.

A lot of the things you stated in your first post on this thread had already been addressed and countered by others, as well as myself. Does that make it right? Who knows, but the difference was that we used facts, logic, and proper writing skills to convey our side. We did not attack nor make blanket truths or untruths with no support provided.

What you have done is essentially hear someone, yet not listen. There is a HUGE difference between hearing and listening. When someone is talking to you, do you often find yourself thinking of your response or the next topic you wish to discuss? If so, you may only be hearing and not listening...there is help.

Anyways, the others have already given you great responses in regards to your unsupported statements above. Please take the time to cool down, re read with an open mind, and say, hmmm yes there might be a point there, let us discuss it further and see if it evolves.

Since they already quoted and addressed one of your statements which was shown to be quite hypocritical, I would like to add another one to the mix which caught my eye.

I was not just the driver either, I was lucky enough to have a captain, that was not afraid to let me take the reins and handle the pt. care until it went passed my level. Meaning that there was a medication needing to be pushed or something along those lines.

At what point was it determined to be past your level without an ALS assessment?

I would imagine the moment you walked up it was past your level until it was determined to be BLS in nature and then handed back over to you for completion, no?

I find it amusing that from one who is in medic school (did I misinterpret that?), makes a statement of "until the pt needs a med pushed or something along that line". I find that to be one of your most ignorant statements. Ignorance means unknowing not dumb or stupid. And the casual "something along those lines", I mean come on, please clarify, like totally, I don't understand dude.

Anyways, I am sure you will not answer most of my questions, however deep down I hope you do. I hope you are able to counter with well thought out logical responses and not degrade this to a pissing contest.

However, if anything at all, the one question I want you to answer is the first one I wrote above after your quote.

At what point was it determined to be past your level without an ALS assessment?

[daniell68]

Daniell it definitely sounds like Alaska needs an education overhaul if instructors are as you say they are. Is there only one paramedic school?

I am all for people going straight to paramedic as there is no benefit to time spent as a basic. If you work as a basic while taking paramedic you will have had plenty of time to practice bandaging.

You as captain (are you fire as never heard of an EMS captain? ) must work with new paramedics and help improve education. Many students and even experienced providers need help getting past bad attitudes and bad habits.

Now much of this could be avoided if all were required to be Paramedics but that is another discussion.

As to military to paramedic. Nope. I work with several that were classified military medics that work as basics, and it surprises me how little some know. But then a couple of them have tons of knowledge. They have all explained that some of them get to go get more education. But all agree beyond trauma they have limited knowledge or experience.

Spenac, yes I am a fire captain, we do both fire and medical we are a ground als transport for 110 miles in and around our city. Yes we do need an education overhaul and to be fair to those managing the program, they are trying and changes are forthcoming. I did not mean to come across as bitter but we do a lot of retraining of medics of all levels that are not getting the quality training they are paying for and deserve, so if I came across that way I apologize.

We are located between two military basses and we do get volunteers from both, and I do agree that their training when it comes to medical patients is lacking for the most part. As I have read further into the posts, I do agree with everyone being held to the same standards (wouldn't that be nice). and I hope in our area at least that will end up happening. Have to go for now but will keep up on this post as I am finding it very intersesting, everyone have a great and safe day.