Michael

On the subject of treating people from different religious beliefs.

In palestine, the pallestinean ambulance authority treats everyone that needs help. The Israeli ambulance service also treats everyone that needs it.

So if those two diametrically opposed religions can treat each other in a crisis then I can't imagine why we are discussing this in our forums. For two religious groups to be so vehemently opposed to each other yet treat the enemy should be a basis on how we do our work.

Michael

Hey Ruffens --

Did you intend to take my name in vain here?

(The Real) Michael

cc via PM, as per request above

A few generations ago it was inconceivable for a lady or gentleman to leave the house without weraing gloves. And now this:

Greetings Kill: Primer for a Pandemic

February 12, 2006

By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.

TO the pantheon of social arbiters who came up with the firm handshake, the formal bow and the air kiss, get ready to add a new fashion god: the World Health Organization, chief advocate of the "elbow bump."

If the avian flu goes pandemic while Tamiflu and vaccines are still in short supply, experts say, the only protection most Americans will have is "social distancing," which is the new politically correct way of saying "quarantine."

But distancing also encompasses less drastic measures, like wearing face masks, staying out of elevators — and the bump. Such stratagems, those experts say, will rewrite the ways we interact, at least during the weeks when the waves of influenza are washing over us.

It has happened before, and not just in medieval Europe, where plague killed a third of the continent's serfs, creating labor shortages that shook the social order. In the United States, the norms of casual sex, which loosened considerably in the 1960's with penicillin and the pill, tightened up again in the 1980's after AIDS raised the penalty.

But influenza is more easily transmitted than AIDS, SARS or even bubonic plague, so the social revolution is likely to focus on the most basic goal of all: keeping other people's cooties at arm's length. The bump, a simple touching of elbows, is a substitute for the filthy practice of shaking hands, in which a person who has politely sneezed into a palm then passes a virus to other hands, whose owners then put a finger in an eye or a pen in a mouth. The bump breaks that chain. Only a contortionist can sneeze on his elbow.

Dr. Michael Bell, associate director for infection control at the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, has done the bump a few times already. When Ebola breaks out in Africa, he's usually on the team sent to fight it.

"I'll arrive on the tarmac and stick out a hand to say hello," Dr. Bell said, "and someone from the W.H.O. team will say: 'No, no, no, we don't do that. We do the elbow bump now.' "

In truth, he said, they do it mostly to set a good example. To stop an Ebola outbreak, visiting doctors must persuade villagers in Angola or the Congo basin to refrain from washing dead bodies and using their bare hands when nursing family members dying of hemorrhagic bleeding.

Those distancing measures would be easy to enforce in a pandemic in New York City. But other likely steps will strike at things New Yorkers are loath to give up. Dr. Isaac Weisfuse, the deputy city health commissioner in charge of avian flu preparation, said his first move would probably be to ban Major League Baseball games, Broadway shows, movies, parades and other large gatherings.

Closing schools or shutting the subways might be even more effective, because children are much more efficient than adults at spreading flu, and subways are enclosed spaces where sneezes linger in the air — but doing that would be harder to pull off, Dr. Weisfuse said. "People talk about 'flu days' like snow days," he said, "and if it was just days or a week, that would be simple. But if it's weeks or months, that becomes another matter." Without mass transit, no one gets to work and the economy collapses, he pointed out, and many poor children depend on the free breakfasts and lunches they get at school.

An alternative is to limit people to necessary travel and to have them wear masks — a tricky thing.

Getting people to don masks in Asia is relatively simple, Dr. Bell said. Particularly in Japan, it is considered polite for anyone going to work with a cold to wear one. And in Asian cities full of soot and diesel exhaust, people often wear gauze masks on the street.

But in the United States, "we don't have a culture of courtesy mask use," he said, and people may feel foolish wearing them.

The government of Taiwan faced that problem three years ago during the SARS epidemic. It ordered everyone who had a cough or fever, or who cared for a family member or patients who did, to wear a mask if they ventured outdoors. The head of Taiwan's version of the Centers for Disease Control correctly noted that studies showed that masks do much more good if the sick wear them, keeping sneeze droplets in, than if the healthy do.

But masks were rare on the streets, and the mayor of Taipei, the capital city, decided to ignore the data and pay more attention to the psychology. The sick and exposed would never wear masks, he reasoned, if it marked them as disease carriers. So he simply issued a mayoral order: no one without a mask could ride the subway. The next day, everyone in Taipei was wearing them. Within a week, they had become a fashion item, printed with logos like the Nike swoosh, the Burberry plaid and the Paul Frank monkey.

Pictures of the 1918 flu epidemic include much evidence of that sort of mass psychology. In a photograph of ranks of Seattle police officers, all are wearing masks; in one of 45 Philadelphia gravediggers digging trenches for the dead, none wear them. In a photograph of dozens of beds in a military field hospital, almost all of the patients, doctors and nurses seem to have masks — but most in the foreground have pulled them down for the photographers. People act as the group acts.

When a disease seems far away, as avian flu still does, notions like mask fashion and elbow bumping sound like jokes. But when people start dying, panic ensues, and nothing seems too far-fetched to try. In the 1918 epidemic, Prescott, Ariz., outlawed handshaking. Some small towns tried to close themselves off, barricading their streets against outsiders and telling any citizen who left not to plan on coming back. In factories, common drinking cups gave way to a new invention: the paper cup.

Under pressure, people don't adopt only sensible precautions, they overreact, said Dr. Michael T. Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. During the anthrax scare of 2001, he said, nervous citizens submitted 600,000 specimens of white powder to public laboratories. The samples included brownies with powdered sugar. Dr. Osterholm said he feared that public reactions would be out of sync with any epidemic; that people would get scared too early, then say the fear was overblown and dismiss it. Then, if a pandemic lasts for weeks, fatigue will set in. "We tend to be a just-in-time, crisis-oriented population," he said.

It is all in the timing, said Dr. Harvey V. Fineberg, president of the Institute of Medicine, the medical arm of the National Academy of Sciences. "In the middle of a major pandemic, with people dying, we're likely to see people hungry for clear instructions," he said. "What would backfire would be for you to say, 'Start bumping elbows now.' People would look at you as if you were from Mars."

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

Tiffany has just answered the perplexing question of how to administer anxiety to a Dustdevil.

Dear Michael,

Hey Tiffany –

I'll address this just to you this time.

Italics are mine again (Leviticus 19:19)

First off, I want to apologize.

No apology necessary, no condemnation expressed or implied, though I thank you for the sentiment, which is to enhance the other’s [my] welfare.

I realize what you are seeing in me now and I truly am sorry for the impression I’ve given you of me.

Don’t be. It’s basically very favorable. Would that more individuals carried your express goodwill, your confidence in humanity, your energetic self-searching.

My real 'agenda' has been to share my beliefs as I have asked each of you to do on here. I'm sorry that it's become something you have to question.

I don’t question your beliefs, which I take would mean questioning whether you sincerely believe what you profess to believe. I have tried to do a few things here: a) predict the hostility you would encounter when addressing people in a particular way; predict the futility of addressing many, if not most people that way; c) explain the basis for their hostility and your futility, and, while not justifying the hostility, empathize with it; d) describe what I found in your delivery provocative of hostility, alienation, and futility as best I could. Your agenda didn’t “become” something I had to question; I took your proclamations [your term] from the outset an invitation to which I responded.

I never meant it to seem like I was trying to 'convert' you.

How not?

I was trying to show what I see and where I find my reasons to go on in this life.

Indifferent to whether others agree with you?

This is a hard place

Granted.

, and harder it gets every day.

I hope not indefinitely. That is the rare case. If it persists, I hope you find loving, informed, and persistent support from capable people.

I feel strongly about how hard it is even WITH Jesus, and I know how hopeless it is w/o Him.

I propose that He may work more subtly than we are trained to recognize, and requires a measure of inner quieting in order to be heard; a quieting, heretical as it may sound, even of some articles of belief.

I guess I express myself a little too strongly

Haven’t noticed that.

and it seems as if I'm pushing myself/my beliefs on people.

That I’ve noticed.

That's a terrible thing, I realize,

As one of our skeptic brethren here is fond of saying, Meh…

because it serves to push more away than bring closer.

I can tell you have wounds from 'evangelical Christians’.

Not wounds, nor even irritation. I feel a little sad when I think I see people respond to pain by reaching for dogma (that’s Greek for “proclamation”) because they haven’t learned to trust their experiences without prejudice.

I'm sorry I reopened them.

Nothing reopened, Tiffany, because nothing had been closed. Say, have you ever noticed other people repeatedly trying to correct your diagnoses of their emotional conditions? Or having given up trying to do so?

Like I said, I never intended to ‘convert’ you.

I’m still bewildered by that claim. Whatever else is the purpose of “witnessing” (your term)?

My reasons for being on this site were NOT to ‘convert’ a whole bunch of people.

Sure looked like that was one reason.

When I found this site, I immediately liked it as a place to go to talk and learn. I like the people and I love the knowledge here. I’ve learned SO much from the first few posts I read / posted and from the replies I got from you guys (esp. Dust in Med Terms).

I notice you qualified that, tee-hee…

I don’t intend on just up and forgetting about the site or you guys. Believe it or not, I WANT to get to know people on here (or some of you - I KNOW I can’t get to know you ALL). I'm not a leaver. I don't up and run when I'm confronted.

Good for you. May you be confronted only by worthy encounters, then.

I didn’t mean to insult you by saying you’re a 5!!

I’ve been called worse.

If I'd have said 1 or 10 you could have taken it either as I really like you or I really dislike you.

That’s why in assessing the quality of a patient’s spiritual pain we are trained to ask, “On a scale of zero to ten, zero being winning every argument you’ve ever had and ten realizing that your fundamental beliefs have never had the support of sufficient evidence…”

5 is right in the middle! I was only joking with you, hence the after.

My kind friend, I was joking too. Five = already too generous; a higher rank would have led me to suspect you of holding low standards.

Also, please know, I'm NOT trying to tell ANY of you what is wrong with you.

I had the impression that you find it important to let every heathen you meet learn that they are damned sinners. Was that a false impression? Do you not wish them to learn that from you if they haven’t learned it elsewhere? Would you be content to have them leave your acquaintance persisting in their ignorance of that?

Many who take offense might themselves see that something is wrong or missing, but I NEVER said it or even thought it. I'm sorry for that implication also. I only want people to know that, to fill that void,

What if they don’t perceive such a void? (Dustdevil, call your office)

all they need is Jesus. I don't have an underlying agenda, my only agenda is to share that with you. (I know you don't like me using 'share', but I'm lacking a better word and also a thesaurus).

Howzabout “inform you of that”?

When I asked 'what would convince you', I didn't mean I had to. I didn't mean I wanted to! I meant and I STILL mean that I would like to know what YOU believe.

I try to show rather than tell. I hope that works for you.

Also, I apologize that I "rushed at you".

No blame. I love attention.

I want to know your side better,

Jeez Louise, do I have to have a “side”? How ‘bout a side of bacon?

I don't want to shove mine down your throat.

Having someone else’s side shoved down one’s throat – now there’s a novel 911 call

I fully understand, now, where you are getting your impressions of me.

Internet Explorer

My tone can be impersonal sometimes and I'm working on it. I DO NOT want, or plan, to 'preach' to you and up and leave. I want and enjoy friendship as much as the next guy and I wish for the ‘friend that sticks closer than a brother'.

Where’s Cain when you need him

I want to be one of those friends.

You seem more capable of that and likely to achieve it than many, many people, and I only commend you for that.

I know what I believe though and I won't hide it or change it for a 'friendship'.

Nor should you, unless your belief proves false, or - and here’s my sermon - if believing is simply an inappropriate category with which to meet every experience you have. I have repeatedly had to correct your statements about me in instances where you were uncompelled by outer circumstances to form any assumptions at all. I am proposing that the world will speak to you (and not only you) more clearly if you let it speak its own language and restrain your impulse to trim, say, someone else’s outlook into a format familiar to your convenient handling. It makes people feel bypassed. When it’s attended by the fierce interest you display, they may feel used. A figure whose achievements I judge mixed said at least one clever thing: “If you fail to give a hungry man bread, he will not like you, but if you write him a check and it bounces, he will hate you.” I would add that this is true whether or not you knew there were insufficient funds to cover the check.

That's not what I believe friends are. YES, they accept each other for who they are, but they also (lovingly) try to guide them when they know the other is wrong.

* Ahem: * when invited to do so or always?

(I’m NOT saying you’re wrong)

About what, dammit?

I want people to do that for me also, because I’m SO far from perfect! (As you can tell)

Your secret's safe with me.

You have gone on and on

Sorry it was on and on; you asked and asked.

about me 'handing people off to Jesus' and leaving.

I'm not going anywhere! I'm not planning on leaving! Did you think I would be so upset after our disagreements that I'd rather just forget all this? I appreciate your replies, I really do! I want to know the impressions people are getting of me and if I can improve them, I want to! You can't change what you don't acknowledge and I acknowledge that I'm not perfect and I haven't stated things the best. I'm working on it though.

I meant inwardly. And I said seems as if. Puh-leeze.

The quote about siblings... you noted Cain and Abel. True, yes, but don’t you think, for this situation, it’s a little extreme to compare it to my comment?

It was a joke. Tee.

Not every fall out siblings have makes them want to kill each other - at least I don't think so!

So, you want a personal story? I’ve got one for you on that topic. I have a sister, an ‘older’ sister, who I can relate that quote to exactly. I love her, but I do not like her AT ALL right now. She has done so many things to hurt my family, namely my mom, and her character is very ugly. Her language is unspeakable (no pun intended), her attitude is only ever defiance when something doesn't go her way, and she's rebelled against every ethical/moral standard a 'good' person would set. I know I LOVE her,

The well do not need a physician, but the sick ~ EMS credo, circa 30 AD

but as I said, I certainly don't like her right now.

BIG misunderstanding in the last part. I was speaking of the Christian forum I told you about, not of this one!

I knew that; no misunderstanding there.

I didn’t mean that my faith and my integrity were attacked on here! These posts have been MILD compared to what I encountered on the “Christian” forum.

Hmmm.. not a great testimonial for…

I went there for support when I was going through one of the toughest times for my family and all I got was condemnation and judgment.

That stinks. I’m sorry to hear it.

Yes, I do want guidance. There are MANY people who are wise beyond their years on here and I am constantly learning just reading the posts. Honestly, this site is still great to me - NOT perfect, but still great.

What would be perfect?

Again, I hope we can get past this ‘squabble’

What squabble? What have I missed? We’re getting to know each other, a bit, with it seems uncommon grace and respect on your part and unusual commitment on mine.

and still learn from each other. I know you have knowledge beyond your years in your profession and have much to give or ‘share’.

My specialty is asking. The poet Rilke wrote: “If the Angel deigns to come it will because you have convinced her, not by tears but by your humble resolve to be always beginning; to be a beginner.”

I respect your feelings and your beliefs.

What, dang blast it, are my beliefs that you respect?

I don’t judge or condemn people for their beliefs, but I know mine and I’m not afraid to state them (as you can painfully see).

Not terribly painful. On a scale of zero to…

Lastly I want to say, thank you for your depth and thank you for telling me what you mean. I learned a lot about you through these discussions and I’m sure that you’ve touched many people in EMS. I’m sure you’ve touched many people just in your life.

><> God Bless you <><

I like your fish there.

In Jesus,

Tiffany

P.S. Michael, you stated in one of your first posts that you were ‘here not much longer’ than I. Do you mean on this site or in years?

I meant on the site. Of course, taking the long view, that would mean on earth too.

If you don’t mind my asking, how old are you?

According to the age printed next to your name, I’m old enough to be your dad, and had the begats been in a hurry, your grand-dad.

Hope to talk to you later.

Always a pleasure. You are a rare flower and I hope you find many who appreciate you.

I must admit, this last exchange got me thinking. (I'll try not to let it happen again.)

Eye halve a spelling chequer

It came with my pea sea,

It plainly marques four my revue

Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word

And weight for it two say,

Weather eye and wring oar write

It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid

It nose bee fore two long,

And eye can put the error rite

Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it

I am shore your pleased two no,

Its letter perfect awl the weigh

My chequer tolled me sew.

-Sauce unknown

Michael,

I feel like laughing.

Okay. But just this once.

I didn't know I would get this much response and I certainly didn't know I would get someone to think this deeply about the subject.

There you go!

I am really surprised and happy.

Glad to hear it.

About your answers. I appreciate them... but could you be a little clearer?

I can try.

I'm trying to understand where exactly you stand on the subject, but I don't piece things together that well. Sorry! Could you elaborate?

I'll elaborate and include some of your responses that I'd like to understand. Yours will be italicized.

Physical proof is not the only type of proof.

What kind of proof are you asking for? Just out of interest, what would convince you?

This is an instance of what I was referring to when I said “agenda.” I feel I am being met with an agenda, namely yours (to be blunt, which I believe is what you asked for). You seem, and please note that I say seem, to be ready to convert someone, lots of people, whom you have barely met, and seem, again I say only seem, to have been poised to do that even before having met them. As if riding into town with a mission to change other people without first considering who they are. The suspicion that arouses is that you will disappear just as suddenly as you appeared, never having taken a real interest in the person you approached. It’s as if, by which I don’t say it’s the case, only that it can seem this way, that you are out to accomplish something with, or rather on, the other person as a replacement for engagement. Some people find that offensive, both those who respond with hostility (who think “What? She doesn’t know me and already she’s telling me what’s wrong with me?”) and those who may already be trying to practice some of the principles you espouse, but gave the experience that you are evaluating what slot they fit into. These latter [including moi] look through the [your] behavior for the [your] genuine human interest that is obvious, but as potential rather than expression.

What leads you to think I am either convinced or unconvinced of the operations of God, of the Resurrection, of the Creation, or of Revelation or any tenet of your faith? When I reread your response to my statement above, it reinforces my impression that you’re “agenda” is very specific. And while I encourage you to do what you think best and in the way you think best, I am only predicting that many people will take offense at being addressed by a program. I believe I understand that you want what is good for (say) me, and since you believe that I would be in better shape if I believed a certain something or bunch of things, you are (so to speak) rushing at me so ready to convince that you don’t notice I gave no evidence of needing convincing. Advertisements I can get on TV. Interrelationships are the monopoly of human beings; let’s (humans, I mean) do what no one else can do.

Unless it, or rather He, appears, which is not what most people expect or are easily able to recognize.

Easy question for you, what do you mean?

That the form of the Incarnation as described by Christians is so unexpected that most thoughtful people will not be able to integrate it into their world-view easily. (Say, Dust, was that understated enough?)

Only if self-interest is essential to rationality.

Who is self-interested? Are you saying that I am?

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. You had written that “someone willingly letting their only son die to save the whole world from eternal damnation in Hell is the MOST irrational thing I will ever hear.” I responded by saying that it is irrational only if being rational requires being self-interested. But if sacrifice isn’t always irrational, then what you described need not be irrational.

What do you mean by it?

I meant that it is not self-evident that (self-)sacrifice is always ultimately irrational.

It wasn’t the universal utility of what God offers that I was disputing, but the messages of some of His representatives.

Am I one of His 'representatives' whose message you question?

As expressed on this board, yes. I hope that’s okay with you. After all, I didn’t start this conversation.

What is it that sets apart my posts and my convictions from, say, Medic117's?

I guess you are referring to his post several posts above yours. There Medic117 reports his experience. I don’t sense him (yet, anyway) aggressively looking to alter other people’s beliefs, in fact so ambitiously as to assume without evidence that someone else “needs to be convinced” who may in fact not need to be convinced. He didn’t (as I said, yet, anyway) put himself out there with a strong agenda to change, say, me. So, from that one post alone I mean he seems more open to what, say, I might bring him. I say seems. From that post.

I think He stated it better than I, but we both believe the same, we both live our faith. What do you question?

Not the what, the how of the expression. To be blunt again, only because I think you asked for it and so I must trust you can take it, rushing in with help before you’ve assessed (as they say in ems), or even shown an interest in (I say shown), the other person’s experience is, well, insensitive. Doesn’t build trust, except, as I said earlier, in desperate people.

There are many ministers and denominations out there that I question. I don't put my faith in their message, or esp. them. I put it my faith in Jesus, and try to proclaim only what HE has said to be the truth.

Maybe I should have said “tone” instead of “message.” Nor everyone welcomes proclamations. And some of those who don’t might wish to be your friend may feel unwelcome because they are being proclaimed to more than met. They will, even if not fully consciously, resent feeling used as an instrument in someone else’s narrative, a bit player in another’s spiritual Lone Ranger drama, who gallops up to those in need, achieves some virtuous action, and then rides off into the sunset. Which is, by the way, not how Christ is represented as behaving. I am not contrasting your behavior with Christ’s, which from what I understand of your outlook you don’t need me to do; I am reporting what the ideals you carry look like to me.

I’m sorry, I don’t know which of my thoughts and feelings you are referring to.

I'm referring to the ones you write! Every sentence, every word comes from the way you feel. The way you feel comes from what you've experienced. I'm not saying you STATED any of your experiences, I'm saying experiences make your person and your person writes what you feel. See below, you stated it yourself.

How could you? Where else but from their experiences do anyone’s thoughts come?

Exactly, but people still judge others for them! I wanted to make it clear that I DO NOT judge people for their experiences, for whatever it is that makes them live their lives the way they do. I don't judge their lives. All I know is there is something missing in life if Jesus isn't in it.

There is also something missing in their lives if Tiffany isn’t in it after she’s encountered them; if she meets them in order to “hand them off” to Jesus.

He was missing in mine for a time too and it was the loneliness I've ever been.

I’m proposing that there may be people who, in like manner, are lonely because they miss you, perhaps soon after they’ve met you, if your purpose is to introduce them to Jesus instead of to Tiffany. And please note that I said “if.”

I don’t recall that I claimed to know. The point of my post was in fact that, for finite human beings, acquiring information is necessary in order to issue useful prescriptions.

Okay, I get that you wanted me to be more personal. Like I said, it's a trust issue but I'll try.

In this instance I was referring your acquiring information about them before you tell them how to correct their imperfections (namely through Chrsitianity).

I don’t doubt any of this nor minimize its importance, and I don't know what might have led you to think I did.

Sorry, it might've sounded like I went off on you.

No sweat.

I was just trying to explain some of the 'experiences' I've been through w/o going into GREAT detail. Like I said, you guys wouldn't believe HALF the stuff and my honesty would be questioned next! So I don't think you want me to go into all that.

As you wish. I doubt that your honesty would be questioned here, but I don’t know. I do know that one concrete story about your life will hold more interest for those who don’t already share your beliefs than all the statements about salvation you can collect or paraphrase, however eloquently you do it (and you do it eloquently).

In case it's of any value to you, I’d be content to think of you as being ready to start loving people you haven’t met, but not being able to love them until you’ve met them. I don’t think even God would expect you to love someone you haven’t yet met. Otherwise, what would be the point of meeting them?

This is where it gets tricky. When I meet someone and get to know them awhile, I know I either like them or dislike them. I either enjoy being around them or I don't and there are varying degrees. I don't 'rate' people or anything, it's just a fact. I think EVERYONE does it!

I think you’re right.

Think about it. You can tell right now whether you like me or whether you don't and there's a degree. You couldn't absolutely HATE me cause why would you write?

Well, there are things one can write to those one hates, but those are usually nest left unwritten.

So, YES, I dislike people and I REALLY hate to be around certain people, but I don't hate them! You can love someone and really dislike them at the same time you know.

So they say.

Siblings do it all the time!

Cain, I'd like you to meet Abel. Easy, Boy!

Parents with disrespectful rebels for kids do it all the time!

How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is / To have a thankless child!

God commands us to LOVE people, but He didn't say we had to LIKE them. (By the way, you'd be a 5)

* WHAAAA! *

You’re welcome! (How convenient to be able to say two different things with one phrase.)

Isn't it though?

Which is why it’s best not to provoke them unnecessarily; I was hoping to save you some grief.

Thanks for the thought. I appreciate it. I was expecting it to get ugly though and I expected a lot of people to be against what I believe.

Those with the most interesting things to say might be discouraged.

That's what Jesus said would happen, and I only hoped that sharing my faith might help even just one person out there reading all these posts and replies. If it did, honestly, ALL this would be worth it.

So this 5 is also a one. Maybe not as impressive as the Doctrine of the Trinity, but pretty cool.

Evangelizing can have that effect on some audiences.

I know, believe me I do. But I wasn't evangelizing! I'm no Billy Graham (as you can tell), and I wasn't preaching! I wanted guidance

I’m sorry: I reread your first post and don’t see where you are asking for guidance (from earthlings) or what kind of guidance you are seeking. So let me ask you What kind of guidance you are seeking here?

and I wanted a 'support group' to help me go through some of those 'experiences' I spoke of.

I'm trying, I'm trying!

Honestly, my character and my integrity was attacked! If you want someone to really preach to you, with all the big words and scriptual refs and fire-and-brimstone language, let me know and I'll give you the address!

No, that’s fine, thank you anyway.

It seems to work best when contributors are met without agendas.

Okay... the third party language is what's confusing me. I wish you would just come out and tell me what you mean. Am I a contributor with an 'agenda'?

Your posts in this thread give me the impression of your carrying an agenda.

What do you think is my 'agenda'? I'd really like to know some of your thoughts.

You approach strangers in order to convert them to Christianity.

Hmmm… I hope it gets still better. You are enriching our experiences. Even when we don't all understand each other perfectly; knowing in part, understanding in part...

I hope it does to. As far as me enriching anyones experiences? I like to think that I might, but I don't!

So I’m lying then. Pity.

It's flattering you say that though! Yes, I would really like to understand you better.

Same here.

I would really like to understand your stand and your beliefs also. You have spoken much on mine, and I would really like to hear yours.

Perhaps beliefs don’t play as central a role in my life as they do in yours. As for some of my interests, I do try to express then here and in other posts. They include learning about (some) other people: how they experience the world, [chief complaint/chief celebration, onset, etc.], what I might be able to do to help or co-celebrate, what we can achieve together. But to be honest, I’m a little wary of exposing too much to you because I don’t want to be handing you tools in order to try to convert me to the way you think. We can let it grow (or not) in a natural sort of way. Other people, like yourself, have had their trust abused, sometimes by well-intentioned evangelists. And I still don’t know how what you’re doing isn’t that.

Thanks for writing.

I thank you.

You give me reason to examine my faith and what I believe.

And you've done the same for me. Amen to that.

Hey all,

Hey Tiffany! Nice (for me) to see you back. I’ve culled some of your responses to my post and re-respond. The italics are because I couldn't replicate your font & color to distinguish it from my responses.

I don't have physical proof of what I believe.

Physical proof is not the only type of proof.

I haven't seen the archaeological findings that proved the ark's existence, I haven't seen the garment pieces of Jesus' robe or the nails that held Him to the cross. But I believe it, and I know it in my heart to be true.

Love, many people know love. They can't see it, touch it, hold it... yet they know it is there. You might be able to see it IN things, but you can never actually see IT.

Unless it, or rather He, appears, which is not what most people expect or are easily able to recognize.

You say it sounds irrational. I agree! I think someone willingly letting their only son die to save the whole world from eternal damnation in Hell is the MOST irrational thing I will ever hear.

Only if self-interest is essential to rationality.

You speak of Christianity as if it were a kind of music.

I do?

You’re wrong, he IS a ‘one-size-fits-all’.

It wasn’t the universal utility of what God offers that I was disputing, but the messages of some of His representatives.

Michael, I believe that your thoughts and your feelings stem from experiences you've had and hard-times you've been through.

I’m sorry, I don’t know which of my thoughts and feelings you are referring to.

I believe the same for EVERY PERSON on here and I don't judge you or anyone for it.

How could you? Where else but from their experiences do anyone’s thoughts come?

I don't doubt your experience, I don't question it. Yet MY experience, probably due to my age, HAS been questioned. The thing is, you don't know what I’ve experienced.

I don’t recall that I claimed to know. The point of my post was in fact that, for finite human beings, acquiring information is necessary in order to issue useful prescriptions.

I have gone through many things that you guys just wouldn't believe. Since I choose not to air that for the whole world to read, it's disputed. I have the same struggles, the same temptations as every person does. I haven't been bubble wrapped and living in some fairy tale world where everything is rosy and happy. I've had A LOT of emotional, physical and familial pain and problems. I didn't have a 'normal' family with a ‘Grandpa’ and ‘Grandma’, aunts and uncles. I had knowledge of the kind of people they were and what they had done to hurt alot of people close to me. My close family has had alot of medical problems we've gone through, and thankfully made it through, together. The people who should love us have chosen to attack us. My reputation was marred by no act of myself and I couldn't find a job for a LONG time because of it. Right now I’m struggling to find a job where my age may play a major factor in my consideration now. I’m not perfect. I get angry and hurt and depressed sometimes too. Probably more than I should (just ask my mom ). But I’m trying to see the good in my situation. I’m trying to be optimistic and I’m trying to give my problems to God. That’s where this whole post originated from and I am as guilty as the next guy of trying to take control and handle things myself.

I don’t doubt any of this nor minimize its importance, and I don't know what might have led you to think I did.

I love people and I care deeply about people because that is what God commands us to do. It’s easy to love those who love you, it’s harder to love those against you or those who hurt you. I don’t know you all by name, and I don’t claim to know you and your needs, etc. but I love you and I care about you just the same.

In case it's of any value to you, I’d be content to think of you as being ready to start loving people you haven’t met, but not being able to love them until you’ve met them. I don’t think even God would expect you to love someone you haven’t yet met. Otherwise, what would be the point of meeting them?

Thanks for the welcome.

You’re welcome! (How convenient to be able to say two different things with one phrase.)

I hope you got a little better idea of where I’m coming from.

A little. Which in human relations is a lot.

If not, I can’t change it, it’s who I am. I’ll try to be more open, but would even an army chaplain stand in the midst of a raging battlefield with no cover? Like I said, I’ve had some really bad experiences with forums when I opened up to people, so I guess it’s a trust issue. People can be really cruel.

Which is why it’s best not to provoke them unnecessarily; I was hoping to save you some grief.

That very forum was a ‘Christian’ forum. I thought is was a place I could go where the people would be friendly and want to encourage and uplift others. Instead, my very first post was torn apart, broken down and analyzed by a bunch of “Christians” who immediately questioned my intentions and faith.

Evangelizing can have that effect on some audiences.

I couldn’t believe it. That’s why I have liked this forum so much. People from all walks of life and differing beliefs still come together and enjoy each other. I think that’s a great trait of this site still and I hope it continues.

It seems to work best when contributors are met without agendas.

Thank you all for the not-so-bad experiences so far!

Hmmm… I hope it gets still better. You are enriching our experiences. Even when we don't all understand each other perfectly; knowing in part, understanding in part...

Here's a nicer story:

http://cbs4.com/pets/local_story_039123402.html

Huh?

Michael, the difference you asked? Well, I think there is a big difference. What I consider to be 'preaching' is trying to shove your religion down someone's throat. (Exception is when in church. Preacher's gotta preach you know! ) 'Sharing' your faith is witnessing. It's actually CARING about the person down deep and relating to them. Sharing is you wanting them to experience the joy and peace you feel. I don't want to shove my faith down your throat! I have seen it and know it to be true - that is what pushes people away the quickest!

Hey, Tiff --

Glad you responded.

I must confess, even with your explanation it's still hard for me to see the difference you cite. Your image of "shoving my faith down your throat" is a vivid and clear one: In order to feed another person nourishingly, a dietitian needs to be sensitive the other's appetite as well as nutritional deficiency; that is, speak to the individual case, the nuances of suffering, the how-this-came-about of each particular case, rather than a one-size-fits-all, and gotta-do-it-right-now! tactic. The outcome will depend on the feeder's motive, and it takes a lot of self-knowledge to weed out egotistic ingredients, including laziness and fear, in one's own approach. In EMS terms, effective social or moral service is like what the experienced practitioners at this website urge vs. the cookbook approach that can be lethal: the blind leading the astigmatic. When Bishop Sheen, an aged preacher famous for converting thousands, was on his deathbed, he was visited in the hospital by a young priest who asked him for guidance. The young man named the large number of converts Sheen had brought to the Church and compared it with his own much lesser accomplishment, a number in only the double-digits. "How might I increase my harvest?" asked the priest. Bishop Sheen lifted his head a few inches off the pillow. "First thing," he said softly, "Stop counting."

You say that "Sharing your faith is ... actually CARING about the person down deep and relating to them." It would seem to me that "relating" can only be a two-way street, which actually begins with taking an interest in the traffic coming toward you and be willing to let it change you. How does one care generically? Caring needs to cost you something, as in "bought with a price." During a political campaign concerning socialized medicine, one speaker declared in a speech that he was in a better position to provide for his own children's needs than the government was. Speaking to the crowd, he announced, "That's because you don't care about my children as much as I do." One lady in the audience shot back, "That's not true! I care deeply about your children!" To which the speaker replied, "Oh? What are their names?"

If Tiffany tells us what is going on with Tiffany, those who do not already share her beliefs will likely be more interested. Perhaps not always useful, but interested. That is, in the specifics of her life, the uncertainties, not just the certainties of your faith. That is a big risk to disclose, especially in an environment that can be hostile. But while preaching, or if you will, witnessing, to the converted has its reassurances, that's not what you say your main aim is. It is (for some of us) refreshing to read your sparkle and joy, and would be fun to see how your life develops. Bible quotes can be good reading, but as soon as someone who is really looking for communion senses that s/he is being deflected or avoided behind a literary shield, their despair is reinforced (a sin of which I don't claim to be innocent :shock: ).

While your not taking offense at attacks can set an intriguing and, if persisted in, impressive example, I suggest that to reach skeptics, at least those who are not desperate, you will need another tack. Saying that "the voices in my head say other things, I don't listen to them too much anymore" doesn't seem quite accurate; perhaps we (you, Dust, moi) mean different things by such voices. Where else (Michael asks himself silently) do I hear voices but in my head? Where else do I hear a voice saying "4" when I've added 2 + 2? Where else do I hear, temporarily let us hope, "3" when I try the same problem another time? And (I ask with with Dust) how do I know the difference? "I know it to be true because I have experienced it in my life. I have seen it and I have chosen to believe it. I wouldn’t want to take the risk of it not being true!" is, I must admit, just the answer that Dust [if I may dare to speculate out of turn for him] may be worried about, in the sense that it's "unfalsifiable" -- a closed system, in a word, unscientific, or to put it more bluntly still, it sounds irrational.

So all this is to say, however clumsily and from someone who's been here not much longer than you, Welcome, Tiffany! And especially, welcome Tiffany, at least as much as Tiffany's beliefs.

Here endeth the sermon.

I misled those who might want to pursue the link I posted. Extended discussion is not at the first link at the bottom of that page, rather at http://villagevoice.com/people/0604,savage,71888,24.html

Roger, Rid - I'd rather rely on someone who holds the values you express here than with most others. My agenda is not to locate whom to blame (when I'm not the victim, that is :shock: ) but to comprehend others' perspectives. Blaming, I've been told and I've found, works a bit like swallowing poison and then waiting for the other person to die.

The interest that several here have kindly shown in this lady's difficult situation, and the certainty of some of the opinions that have met it, lead me to attach a link. It is here for the interest of those who wish to be helpful rather than for the original poster. I attach it not because I accord authority to the one who created it, but as a refresher that there are multiple perspectives to most human situations, including tragic ones. I'm often out of synch with the values of the author and my style varies from his (which is not G-rated), but I'll take my wisdom wherever I can find it. Since ems providers are, to my mind admirably, dedicated to serving everyone in need, it's here as a challenge to enter into the perspectives of those with whom we share the planet, and sometimes unexpectedly, more than that.

The first link at the bottom of the page leads to an extended discussion.

http://villagevoice.com/people/0602,savage,71617,24.html

I took what

I thought about trying someone else, but I just don't know.

to mean another counselor, not another partner.

In any event, canvassing this forum may be a good way to test the waters, but to make changes you'll eventually need a real-life intervention that offers ongoing support in both a detached and committed way. The internet, which in addition to information offers only illusory intimacy based on individuals' construction of personas (= masks) is not the medium that can give you conclusive relief any more than it will satisfy him long-term. By all means sound us out here, but I would suggest you not believe that this kind of discussion can be an ultimately satisfying substitute for the depth of encounter you are seeking to heal your wound. Just as it can't be for him. Use us as a launching pad into a real-life resource.

That's my "Psychiatric Help, 5 Cents" contribution.

What I do have a problem with is people telling me that I'm "unholy" becasue I have tattoos and play rollerderby.

http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=119 (You go, Grrrl!)

Look at it this way- you get mad at the co-worker whose significant other is all over them in a very public way; it makes some people uncomfortable. They have a right to that emotion, but not to subject others to it who don't want to be subjected to it. Therefore, since prayer is an affirmation of my relationship with God, and it makes some people uncomfortable, I keep public display of it to a minimum without losing my ability TO pray when I need to.

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." - The Sermon on the Mount

My bible teach's me to love all man as if it where christ himself for to sin aganst my brother is to sin against christ (please don't ask me where it is)

Matthew 25:40 "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

I don't want to preach to people, I want to share with them what I know to be true.

Hi Tiff -- What's the diff? (Honest question.)

bandaid wrote:

Must be hard to get there with a fractured ankle and hip!

I did say "most"

Dust wrote:

Back pain and neck pain.

Chest pain and abdominal pain.

Pain all over.

Headaches.

Weakness.

Fevers.

Difficulty breathing.

Altered mental status.

Unconsciousness.

Nausea and vomiting.

Fractured hip.

Fractured ankle.

Head lacerations.

Hand lacerations.

That's the most common complaints. As you can see, EMT school doesn't hardly prepare you for any of that.

Sure it does! I experienced most of those on the way to classes...

Rid's reply sent me to this informative description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korotkoff_sounds

This do-it-yourself rational approach to emotional balance (no gimmicks) helped me mucho:

http://threeminutetherapy.com/

see what I mean?

checking this site