Michael

Sleep-posted:

Some Sleeping Pill Users Range Far Beyond Bed

March 8, 2006

By STEPHANIE SAUL

With a tendency to stare zombie-like and run into stationary objects, a new species of impaired motorist is hitting the roads: the Ambien driver.

Ambien, the nation's best-selling prescription sleeping pill, is showing up with regularity as a factor in traffic arrests, sometimes involving drivers who later say they were sleep-driving and have no memory of taking the wheel after taking the drug.

In some state toxicology laboratories Ambien makes the top 10 list of drugs found in impaired drivers. Wisconsin officials identified Ambien in the bloodstreams of 187 arrested drivers from 1999 to 2004.

And as a more people are taking the drug — 26.5 million prescriptions in this country last year — there are signs that Ambien-related driving arrests are on the rise. In Washington State, for example, officials counted 78 impaired-driving arrests in which Ambien was a factor last year, up from 56 in 2004.

Ambien's maker, Sanofi-Aventis, says the drug's record after 13 years of use in this country shows it is safe when taken as directed. But a spokeswoman, Melissa Feltmann, wrote in an e-mail message, "We are aware of reports of people driving while sleepwalking, and those reports have been provided to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration as part of our ongoing postmarketing evaluation about the safety of our products."

A spokeswoman for the F.D.A. said the drug's current label warnings, which say it should not be used with alcohol and in some cases could cause sleepwalking or hallucinations, were adequate. "People should be aware of that," said the spokeswoman, Susan Cruzan.

While alcohol and other drugs are sometimes also involved in the Ambien traffic cases, the drivers tend to stand out from other under-the-influence motorists. The behavior can include driving in the wrong direction or slamming into light poles or parked vehicles, as well as seeming oblivious to the arresting officers, according to a presentation last month at a meeting of forensic scientists.

"These cases are just extremely bizarre, with extreme impairment," said Laura J. Liddicoat, the forensic toxicology supervisor at a state-run lab in Wisconsin who made the presentation.

Her presentation, which reported on six of the cases, was made at a meeting of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, where her counterparts from other parts of the country swapped similar tales.

Several of Ms. Liddicoat's cases involved drivers whose blood revealed evidence of Ambien overdoses. In one of them the driver, who was also taking the antidepressant citalopram, crashed into a parked car, was involved in another near collision, then drove over a curb. When confronted by police, he did not recall any of the recent events, according to the presentation.

Ms. Liddicoat did not describe any of those cases as sleep-driving — in fact, she said she had not heard of that defense — and it is possible that some drivers' claims of driving while asleep may be mere Ambien alibis. But some medical researchers say reports of sleep-driving are plausible.

Doctors affiliated with the University of Minnesota Medical Center who have studied Ambien recently reported the cases of two users who told doctors they sleep-drove to the supermarket while under the drug's influence. Neither of the patients remembered the episode the next day, according to Dr. Carlos Schenck, an expert in sleep disorders who is the lead researcher in the study.

"Luckily, neither of them got hurt," said Dr. Schenck, who added that sleep-driving — which really occurs in a twilight state between sleep and wakefulness — was more common than people generally suspect. He said he believed that Ambien was an excellent sleep agent, but that patients need to be better warned about its potential side effects.

The traffic cases around the country include that of Dwayne Cribb, a longtime probation and parole officer in Rock Hill, S.C. Mr. Cribb says he remembers nothing after taking Ambien before bed last Halloween — until he awoke in jail to learn he had left his bed and gone for a drive, smashed into a parked van and driven away before crashing into a tree. Mr. Cribb is still facing charges of leaving the scene of an accident.

A registered nurse who lives outside Denver took Ambien before going to sleep one night in January 2003. Sometime later — she says she remembers none of the episode — she got into her car wearing only a thin nightshirt in 20-degree weather, had a fender bender, urinated in the middle of an intersection, then became violent with police officers, according to her lawyer.

The woman, whose lawyer says she previously had a pristine traffic record, eventually pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of careless driving after the prosecutors partly accepted her version of events, said the lawyer, Lloyd L. Boyer.

Many states do not currently test for Ambien when making impaired- driving arrests. But a survey still under way by a committee from the forensic sciences group and the Society of Forensic Toxicologists found that among laboratories that conduct tests of drivers' blood samples for two dozen states, 10 labs list Ambien among the top 10 drugs found in impaired drivers, according to Dr. Sarah Kerrigan, a forensic toxicologist in Houston involved in that survey.

Ms. Liddicoat, in Wisconsin, is among experts who suggest that Ambien may need a stronger warning label. Others arguing that case include doctors, Ambien users and defense lawyers.

"Doctors are handing out these drugs like Pez," said William C. Head, an Atlanta lawyer who is one of the nation's leading defense lawyers specializing in impaired-driving cases.

The F.D.A., which would have to order any labeling changes, says it is not aware of any pattern of problems with the drug. Still Ms. Cruzan, in response to a reporter's question, said the agency would look into unusual sleepwalking episodes.

Including the notifications from Sanofi, which as a matter of policy the F.D.A. declined to discuss, the agency did receive 48 "adverse event" reports in 2004 involving Ambien use without other drugs. They involved three cases of sleepwalking, six reports of hallucinations and one traffic accident.

Ambien's competitors — Lunesta by Sepracor and Sonata by King Pharmaceuticals — are not as widely used in this country, and do not seem to be cropping up with any frequency on police blotters. Ambien sales last year reached $2.2 billion, according to IMS Health. Among the three drugs, Ambien accounted for 84 percent of prescriptions dispensed.

A federal prosecutor was persuaded that Ambien played a part in a well-publicized case last summer involving not a car but an airliner. A US Airways flight from Charlotte, N.C., to London last July was diverted to Boston, after a passenger who had taken Ambien became "like the Incredible Hulk all of a sudden," according to his lawyer.

The man, Sean Joyce, a British painting contractor, became agitated, tore off his shirt and threatened to kill himself and fellow passengers, according to court documents. If convicted, Mr. Joyce could have faced a maximum sentence of 20 years in jail for interfering with a flight crew, according to his lawyer, Michael C. Andrews.

But under a plea agreement Mr. Joyce was sentenced to five days already served, after the prosecutor accepted his story that his eruption, which he said he could not recall at all, occurred as a result of taking one Ambien pill and drinking two individual-serving bottles of wine.

Many of the impaired-driving cases involve people who drank alcohol before taking Ambien. Mr. Cribb, for instance, said he had two beers with dinner before he took the drug and went to bed.

Sanofi-Aventis says that while sleepwalking may occur while taking Ambien, the drug may not be the cause. It also notes that the warnings with Ambien, including those in its television ads, specifically instruct patients not to use it with alcohol and to take it right before bed.

Alcohol has sometimes been shown to cause sleepwalking, and it can also magnify Ambien's effects, according to Dr. Mark Mahowald, director of the Minnesota Regional Sleep Disorders Center at Hennepin County Medical Center, who is also involved in Dr. Schenck's study.

In the past, the center has received grant funding from Sepracor, Lunesta's maker, but Dr. Mahowald said that none of the researchers currently received any funding from sleeping pill companies.

Ambien's alcohol warning is apparently ignored by many people. But Mr. Head, the defense lawyer, says he has concluded that no one should take Ambien the same evening they have been drinking alcohol. "Not even a toast," he said.

Mr. Head is now defending a man in Decatur, Ga., who, after having three drinks one night, said he took two Ambien and was in bed watching David Letterman's monologue on television. Without realizing it, the man says, he got back out of bed and behind the wheel and was arrested on multiple charges that included driving on the wrong side of the road.

Too many other people taking Ambien also evidently disregard the other label guidelines.

Ann Marie Gordon, manager of Washington State's toxicology lab, said that many of those arrested reported that they took Ambien while driving so it would "kick in" by the time they got home. "Hello — it kicked in before you got home?" Ms. Gordon said. "That's not a good thing. I'm amazed at the number of people who do that."

But misuse of the drug may not explain all the cases. The nurse near Denver took a single Ambien and went to bed, according to her lawyer, Mr. Boyer of Englewood, Colo. Mr. Boyer said that only when the woman returned home after her arrest did she discover a partly consumed bottle of wine on her counter — unopened when she went to bed, she said — leading her to suspect she had begun drinking after taking Ambien.

Research by Dr. Schenck and others elsewhere have found evidence that Ambien users engaged, unawares, in various middle-of-the-night behaviors. In a study published in 2001, researchers at the Mayo Clinic Sleep Disorders Center reported on five cases of unusual nighttime eating, sometimes while sleepwalking, in patients taking Ambien. The chief of physical medicine and rehabilitation for the VA North Texas Health System in Dallas, Dr. Weibin Yang, said he became aware of Ambien's potential side effects while at another hospital treating a 55-year-old patient after hip surgery.

The man, who had no history of sleepwalking, walked into a hospital corridor one night, where he urinated on the floor. On another night, he got out of bed and told nurses he was going to church. Dr. Yang said the patient was also taking other medications, but the sleepwalking stopped when Ambien was discontinued. The patient, he said, had no recollection of either event.

Dr. Yang said such experiences persuaded him that people could drive, without realizing it, after taking Ambien.

Meanwhile in South Carolina, Mr. Cribb, who has already pleaded guilty to driving under the influence, still faces a charge of leaving the scene of an accident. He says he has sworn off Ambien. "There has to be a stronger warning," he said, "about what this drug does to you."

Ron Nixon contributed reporting for this article.

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

I've heard of being in a pickle, but...

Welcome to the City. I can be a little rough in here.

Even when spell check is working.

I feel your pain. You're all revved up to do your best, bring your enthusiasm, a crisp uniform and a humble willingness to learn, and... * poof * no response, or worse, avoidance. But I think you're on the right track with your closing comment: Take the long view -- how much will those twelve hours mean to you in twelve weeks, twelve months, twelve years from now? The staff that underwhelmed you see dozens of us march through their doors, stay for less than a day (that's the system, no one's fault) and disappear into the night, with no credit to their temporary instructors. It would take extraordinary vision for your "hosts" to invest much energy in your (or my) fleeting presence. Let's hope we would do so in their place, but after a long time working anywhere, many people get jaded. Rise above it; it's just a puddle to step over. Keep moving; you have a goal -- feel sorry for those you've just met who don't. And you've learned what not to do to others!

I don't know where you searched, but it obviously was not the website of the Copyright owner.

From: http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html

Thanks again, Dust. Interesting topic. Here are two relevant excerpts from what I'd found:

>Is it all right to copy an article from The New York Times web page and send it to a friend? Distribute it in your office? Post it on your own web page? "There are no clear answers now," McClary said. "You have to look at all the factors -- what type of work it is, how much of it is being copied, how widely is it going to be disseminated, how many copies are being distributed, is it for an educational purpose -- and come to the best conclusion you can. Perhaps the most important question is whether or not you are damaging the copyright owner in some way."<

That's from http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/96/3...copyright.html:

and

>Under another hypothetical situation, an Internet user might decide to copy an article from the New York Times on the Web in order to use that article in a piece of scholarship or research. According to the New York Times Copyright Notice, such use would violate the user agreement. However, sec 107 provides a fair use defense for research or scholarship purposes.

>These potential situations make further examination of the fair use doctrine necessary. When a party raises a fair use defense, courts usually analyze the four factors provided by Congress to determine whether the doctrine applies to the defendant's use of the copyrighted work. These four factors are as follows:

>(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

>(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

>(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

>(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.<

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...i_n8957262/pg_2 goes on to detail the constituent elements of each of these factors. I read these amplifications as applying to my quotes here.

I appreciate your concern for my well being. I'm no expert on fair use, but I think it important that we exercise such rights. If you can help me learn for certain that my posting is not fair use, perhaps you could PM me the relevant information, or help others here in a thread labeled so they can find what they need.

© 2006 Michael. All Rights Reserved.

Obviously Michael didn't read his own article.

Dude, if you're going to break the law, at least try to delete the evidence!

Hey Dust - Thanks for looking out for me. My web search leads me to believe this is Fair Use.

Those who click on the topic marked "Christianity in EMS" should, I suppose, not be surprised to see something there about Christianity, perhaps worth responding to, perhaps not. I addressed what I perceived to be a deficiency in a well-meaning "practitioner's" technical training. I was responding to the topic Tiffany introduced, which I would call Christianity as EMS, namely Christian belief not just as a personal resource for the provider, but what, with her remarkably altruistic energy, she called "witnessing". I was interested in participating in an exchange about the ethics of providing others with "treatment" that has not been expressly requested; I did so in order both to express my views and to learn from how others received them.

In some languages the same word means both "poison" and "medicine". Because the proper handling of therapeutic agents is essential to their useful administration, my contribution to the thread suggested protocols implicit in introducing the Gospel according to principles such as "First, do not harm," and other humane goals. Quite a few participants on this site, from whom I frequently learn, are sensitive to the social, psychological, and even spiritual aspects of emergency treatment, including the hazards of iatrogenic pathology, which we all try to avoid. Encouraged by overwhelming popular request (I so hate to see people suffer!), I had just PM'd Tiffany when I came across the following article. If it doesn't interest readers of this thread I guess I'll just shuffle on home (*sniff*).

Rebels With a Cross

March 2, 2006

By JOHN LELAND

BY phone from Nashville Bryan Norman was talking about rebellion, God and the mullet haircut. Mr. Norman, 26, is the editor of a gothic scripted, visually hyperactive book called "The New Rebellion Handbook," and he took a particular line on the romance of the rebel.

"Rebellion," he said late last month, "is the truest expression of the fully committed believer in Jesus."

Anyone looking for the spirit of American counterculture — as a romance, identity or marketing principle — need look no further than the nearest evangelical bookstore, youth ministry or clothing line. A decade and a half after Nirvana's success exposed the strength of secular alt-culture tribes, their evangelical counterparts are having their own coming out in rebel gestures that sometimes recall the early church, sometimes ... well, early Nirvana.

"There's a charm in being the rebel," said Edmund Gibbs, a professor of church growth at Fuller Theological Seminary and the author of books on alternative Christian culture. Besides, he said, rebellion is consistent with the lessons of the Bible.

"If evangelicalism means a commitment to the radical doctrine of Jesus, you have to be a subversive. Jesus was a subversive." In the increasingly clamorous Christian marketplace rebellion is where you find it: in full-contact skateboard Bible study groups; in Christian punk, Goth and hip-hop CD's; in evangelical tattoo parlors; in sportswear brands like Extreme Christian Clothing and Fear God; in alt churches or ministries called Revolution, Scum of the Earth and Punk Girl; in a podcast called Xtreme Christianity, which turns out to be a fairly conventional weekly sermon delivered by a Baptist minister in a suburb of Kansas City, Mo.

The caldron for this rebellion can be grass roots or institutional: the publisher of the rebellion handbook, Thomas Nelson, is among the world's biggest producers of Bibles and inspirational books in English.

If this rebellion is not exactly the sexy shrug of Marlon Brando in "The Wild One" or of Kurt Cobain in "Smells Like Teen Spirit," the come-on is very much the same. "It's the nonconformist's view of Christianity," Mr. Norman said. For a demographic that is used to being marketed to as rebels, he added, the new rebellion "is really a new installment of the original rebellion." He continued: "It's hearkening back to a raw faith not encumbered by the American dream, enslavement to a career or having to have two kids and a two-car garage. It gets to what's worth living for."

The claim of a Christian counterculture, which recurs periodically in American Protestantism, cuts in two directions, defining itself as counter to the consumer-driven secular culture and to mainstream church culture. For Shane Claiborne, 30, the author of "The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical" (Zondervan), it has meant living for a decade in a monastic community in North Philadelphia, whose members make their own clothing, refrain from sex outside marriage and minister to the homeless and poor.

When he applies the language of rebellion to his faith, Mr. Claiborne said: "I'm trying to reclaim the language. I think it resonates with people because Christianity has been anything but radical. It's been stale. When you ask people what they think about church, it's sad. But Jesus doesn't have the bad reputation that Christianity has.

"What we do looks extreme because it's an indictment of the idea of Christianity that so many of us have settled for. When we look at the early church, it was very revolutionary. Jesus sat down to rethink revolution. He was able to set both the oppressed and the oppressors free."

For historians of faith-based rebellion, the new shagginess strikes a familiar American chord, tapping an anticlerical tradition that dates back to colonial times, when ministers like John Henry Goetschius excoriated high churches for "their old, rotten and stinking routine of religion."

Larry Eskridge, the associate director of the Institute for the Study of American Evangelicals at Wheaton College in Illinois, compared the current stirrings to the Jesus People, a movement that began in Costa Mesa, Calif., in the late 1960's, borrowing heavily from the hippie counterculture and mixing beach baptisms, conservative theology and grooming habits that were not always welcome in the churches of Orange County.

Before the Jesus People, evangelicals tended to distance themselves from the more disreputable fads of popular culture, Professor Eskridge said. "The Jesus People began co-opting marketing slogans and utilizing buttons, bumper stickers and posters to their own purposes."

The difference between that rebellion and the current one, he added, is that the secular counterculture of the 60's, while often hostile to organized religion, was essentially amenable to the young evangelicals' message. The Jesus People simply claimed kinship with the figure in long hair and sandals, recasting pop culture in spiritual terms.

But more recent secular popular cultures, Professor Eskridge said, are hostile to organized church structures and to rank-and-file evangelicals, who are seen as intolerant. "With the culture wars and the rise of evangelicals generally, you've got a segment of the secular counterculture that has staked out an identity as antievangelical," he said. "So some of what we're seeing now is a movement to claim that turf back."

In a storefront in the East Village, Kenny Mitchell, 34, leads a small church called Tribe, where he sometimes uses his D.J. equipment at services. Part of being a counterculture, Mr. Mitchell said, means working to counter some of the values that get mass marketed as rebellion, including the Big Three of the old counterculture: sex, drugs and the commercial trappings of rock 'n' roll.

"I got into punk," Mr. Mitchell said, "because it was saying things that other people weren't saying" — thumbing its nose at "the man." He continued: "Now there is no man. You've got Jay-Z and Donald Trump all on the same team. There's no point being countercultural if those are the alternatives.

"So we're not against the culture. We're in love with Jesus in this culture. But what we say is counter to the mass media blurb. Hanging out in the Lower East Side with a group of homeboy hip-hopper guys, if you get into their lives, they're not spitting every 50-cent line, they're looking at women or guys without fathers as broken people who need healing. What's countercultural is the elements of their faith, why they're not living the lifestyle of MTV, trying to attain the superstar status with cars and chicks, but working on community and healing."

Even the Christian rock world, which is an outgrowth of the Jesus People movement, has spawned its own equivalent of the secular indie-rock ethos of the 1990's. Shawn McDonald, 28, an altish acoustic performer, whose biography includes problems with drugs and the law, said his rebellion wasn't against the faith. "If I look at Jesus' life, the things that he did, I see a guy that went against the crowd and did things that were not pretty in a lot of people's eyes. So I feel going against stuff is just what I'm called to do."

But the popular images of rebellion do not reflect the ways most young people think about their faith, said Christian Smith, a professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and an author of "Soul Searching: The Religious and Spiritual Lives of American Teenagers" (Oxford University Press), an analysis of interviews and survey data on adolescents.

"We found most teenagers are not rebellious when it comes to religion," Dr. Smith said. "So the rebellion is quite superficial. It may resonate with teenagers in some way, but I don't think it's tapping into some deep cultural rebellion at all. A lot of it is marketing. Maybe it does grab some people's attention, but it's more product design than deep cultural resonance."

There is a contradiction perhaps in evangelicals adopting the stance of the rebel outsider at a time when they have more influence and visibility than they have had in generations. But the same was true of radical youths in the 1960's counterculture, who were more affluent and numerically strong than any generation before them.

Dr. Smith compared the romance of rebellion to the middle-class fascination with hip-hop culture. "Spoiled suburban white kids act like rappers, and there is a real connection to something, but really it's not what their lives are fundamentally about," he said. "Their lives are about wanting to go to Duke University."

As compelling as the images of rebellion are, they do not in themselves constitute a fully sustaining faith, said Donald Miller, 34, the author of "Blue Like Jazz: Nonreligious Thoughts on Christian Spirituality" (Nelson, 2003), a best seller among young Christians.

"It's a cart-before-the-horse thing," said Mr. Miller, who frequently speaks to Christian youth groups and works with campus ministries. "If you're a Christian, you need to obey God. And if you obey God, you're going to be seen as a rebel, both within American church culture and popular culture. But that's not the point. The point is to obey God."

Mr. Norman of "The New Rebellion Handbook" would agree. For all his book's jangly graphics and bite-size lists, the text is heavy on Scripture and not for the uninitiated.

But he said that even the initiated need to be reached in their own language, which is not necessarily that of the church. "The idea is that we are creating a marriage between the packaging that this audience needs in order to be drawn in and content that transcends the packaging."

He recalled an image from his younger years, when he wore his hair in a mullet. "In seventh grade that disqualified me from being in certain groups, just because it wasn't cool," he said. "With the 'new rebellion,' we don't want to be disqualified because it isn't cool looking.

He added: "The packaging is our social collateral, our key to cool. We're allowed in. Its our secret knock."

But he doubted he would ever wear a mullet again.

Copyright 2006T he New York Times Company

Hey Tiffany --

Looks like our conversation has run its natural course.

Here's something you might enjoy, especially if you haven't seen it yet:

http://www.christasus.com/Letters/CSLWhatA...JesusChrist.htm

Best Wishes,

Michael

Before the ink on my certificate has dried, I find I've already started a discussion about "capital" punishment! What a responsibility...

That’s because I just learned I passed the state exam (*whew*).

Thank you dear friends for keeping my information straight, my spirits up, my wonder renewed, and my laughter at 360 joules w/ frequent compressions.

Now of course I’m ready to start learning. As Mark Twain said, “I never let my schooling interfere with my education.” Actually, my course was great; more than I could have wished for.

For my very next lesson: There’s been a lot of attention on this board paid to the NREMT rest, which has hardly been spoken of in my class or corps. My impression has been that the N is relevant only if an emt-b [and that would be me]

a) certified in a state that uses the NR cert as its own state certification

or

relocates to another state that recognizes the NR and does not have reciprocity with the state in which one certified.

Further clarification, anyone, about whether and in what ways the N-test should concern me?

Michael (that’s EMT-B, if you please, tee-hee)

________________________________________

Just had to write one more time

Does that mean you’re bowing out?

for anyone who might see this. (I'm a glutton for punishment.)

If it does mean you’re bowing out, I’d call that not gluttony but leaving as soon as the appetizer has appeared. Not a judgment, just a characterization; people should eat only what they wish (Hast thou found honey? eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be filled therewith, and vomit it. -- For those who like their wisdom aged).

The previous posts have really been something else. They have been debated and dissected - not just by Michael and I, but by everyone who has gotten to this point. It's been a LOOONG road, hasn't it?

Depends what lengths you’re used to going.

Anyway, I had one more thing - actually three more things to add - or as 'someone' ( ) dislikes me saying, share with you all.

I don’t know if I’m the one you whom think doesn’t like “share”; I don’t recall ever objecting. But if an objection is to be made, it would be on the basis of trivializing the principle of (*ahem*) sacrifice; namely, “sharing” has traditionally meant that I will have less of what I’ve shared after I’ve shared it, like, say, a pie. If it doesn’t cost the giver anything tangible, then purists would say it’s not sharing; it’s telling, relating, informing… But I prefer to let others speak as they wish, so long as the meaning is clear. Whadda guy, huh?

I spent last night reading,

That’s how St. Augustine was converted

found these and knew I had to write.

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words”

First off, Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Scary? Yes. Hopeless? No. (Oh, and that means you, me and the next guy. Murderer AND white-lie-teller).

Another thing I don’t know: I know don’t know anyone who thinks himself perfect in all respects, so while what you quote is true enough, it isn’t really news, though during the Roman Empire it would have been news to the psychologically disturbed emperors and those of their pitiful subjects who worshiped them.

Secondly, Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." We all earned our punishment, Thank God we don't have to pay for it!

There may be some reading this here or elsewhere who don’t recall what they did to earn capital punishment.

Last (and the best usually comes then), Romans 10:13 - "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." The greatest gift of all. And to think, all we have to do to get it is to call on him...

"But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.' And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went. The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir'; but he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first.”

Which is to say, Is there not a bit of mystery left about what that “name of the Lord” actually is? (No other person to my knowledge appeared and called himself “I am.”) Naming is not the same as knowing…

Well, there you have it. I said my piece.

Again, this sounds like a sign-off. Is it? (*sniff*)

If anyone wants some more verses like those (especially the inspiring ones), let me know - I got a BIG book full of them!

We all already have access to your book; it’s access to you that is the commodity over which you hold a monopoly. No pressure to conform to another’s will, Tiffany, just reporting that you are worth many sparrows, to coin a phrase.

You don't have to believe it, you're not pressured into reading this. Just think about it. Does it hurt to think about it?

Only when it’s instead of making your better acquaintance (I speak for myself and perhaps others to whom you witness), even by message-board. Stones instead of bread, to coin another phrase.

Before you buy a car, you want to check everything out, make sure everything is kosher, right?

Before you buy a car, in fact instead of buying a car, you’ll be annoyed if the car-salesman keeps trying to sell you a dishwasher.

One little thing is though, if you spend a year investigating every little part to be sure, you'll never get a chance to drive it!

A friend of mine whose mother was a psychotherapist and was always trying to “help” him, concluded when he had grown up that having a mother who’s a psychotherapist can be like having an uncle who’s a tire-salesman; every time you want to talk to your uncle about something important, he tries to give you a great deal on a set of tires. “Tires,” my friend cried out, “I can get down the street; I want an uncle! Couldn't she just have been my mother?”

Sometimes you just have to have faith that the builder made it sturdy enough not to fall to pieces on the highway.

I have the oddest feeling of being left standing on the highway…

THINK about it.

Not much else to do with it! Godspeed, then.

Identical avatars labeling multiple contributors make me dizzy. Are y'all trying to get me to pay closer attention or something?

First off, congratulations on helping out and not becoming a distraction yourself; that's promising. Second, for being open to wondering about your tolerance for gore. Third, keep in mind that this episode confronted you, without warning, to a shock incurred by a previous acquaintance in a role that evoked a "That could've been me!" response, outside any professional trauma-handling context, and without prior training; all these factors vary from ems scenarios. Typically, if you come upon someone you know in trauma, an associate takes over because you can't be expected to keep the useful professional detachment; the finest surgeon won't operate on a family member.

I'll be interested in what seasoned veterans here say about testing the waters, once you've thumbed through medical textbook illustrations and videos, to discover your psychological threshold for blood & guts, which (in the best cases) is an acquired taste.

This one's not about an ems classroom, but a disheartening trend nonetheless. Is it only a matter of time before this spreads to your 911 responder?

http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2006/02/200...1c/careers.html

Dear Michael,

Dear Tiffany!

Your replies are so amusing sometimes! Thanks for replying

not a sacrifice

and for your good humor.

just the chimes through which neighboring winds play

Thanks for the encouragement

by faith, not by sight

and words.

gotta sackful

I guess I'll give you this too, I needed to hear it and it helped.

comes by hearing

Thanks.

Apollos watered

I'm just learning that all sunshine makes a desert. I know I'm going to have to go through some hard times and I can't just give up and get depressed. Like I said though, I have anxiety problems and I'm trying to work on them too. Sometimes things get to be too much. I have to remember no situation is hopeless as long as I keep my hope in God. Romans 8:31 "What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?".

Mencius (pupil of Confucius): “When Heaven is going to give a great responsibility to someone, it first makes his mind endure suffering. It makes his sinews and bones experience toil, and his body to suffer hunger. It inflicts him with poverty and knocks down everything he tries to build.” [many mansions]

Thanks for re-introducing me to my footing. Yes, we have met before and I'm hoping to hold on to it for a while now.

lest thou dash

About that human sacrifice in Golgotha, yes there was a BIG sacrifice there, and yes, as you said, also a BIG difference. Human sacrifices today and yesterday, etc. are NOT related to Jesus' sacrifice at all. That's what He died for, so that our forgiveness did not require a sacrificed life! But, I know you know that, I don't have to tell you.

through hearing

When I get close to people, I want to know that I am going to see them again someday. I mean, if something happens to someone I am close to, I want to be able to look forward to the day when we'll meet again, as in Heaven or when Jesus comes back again. You know what I mean?

Now I do

Oh, I KNOW Jesus is with my family members, I know He is with all those I care about,

* ahem * and not with those you don’t? tee-hee

and I know He's working in their hearts.

tha-thump, tha-thump

I don't witness or preach to them alot. I pray for them alot and try to, as you say, show what I believe. There's a point where people won't listen anymore and instead they watch.

Martin Luther: Don’t listen to my mouth, watch my hands

I just don't want to lead anyone astray by my actions either

unavoidable

and it's like a constant battle w/ myself.

‘tis

I drive myself crazy!!

no better chauffeur for hire

LOL I think that's where my anxiety kicks in.

hard for thee to kick

Oh well...

Sir, give me this water

LOL I know you're never at a loss for an opinion.

beg borrow or steal

That can be a good thing! Even though we don't often agree,

I disagree

I'm glad

wipe away from them every tear

to hear it. Talk to you later.

till

God Bless you!

face to shine

In Jesus,

Tiffany

Some concrete example(s), including as much detail as you feel comfortable relating, would help. This is not to be nosy, but to be useful.

Lest I be misunderstood, by "And now there's Grace," I meant: "There's Grace joining the august ranks of acute observers of the human tragi-comedy."

Though someone once said that the corollary to the familiar "Youth is wasted on the young" is "What's taken for virtue in the old is often only fatigue."

Hi Grace --

If it's any comfort to you, I've yet to hear of a generation recorded in history that was praised for respecting the one before it. For example:

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers." That was Socrates.

Here's the author of Genesis: "And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan."

And here's Confucius: "Yuan Jang sat waiting for the Master in a sprawling position. The Master said, 'Those who when young show no respect to their elders achieve nothing worth mentioning when they grow up. And merely to live on, getting older and older, is to be a useless pest.'

And now there's Grace.

The point of the "original" conversation revolved around the exploits of a young, inexperienced girl trying to make it in EMS. My initial comments were to deter the community here from finding it necessary to debate over something so trivial as the actions of an 18 year old girl, that for many of them, is hundreds of miles away. Why concern ourselves here, a place where progress is trying to be made, with something so stupid?

Hey again, UMTSTUDENT --

To respond to your question here, I for one have found the discussion about heroics informative and useful. To hear veteran ems providers chime in on the various aspects of a) evidence for potential misrepresentation by a contributor to boards like this one teaches me from their articulated detailed BS-detector readings; whether the episode related was fiction or fact, having the hazards of acting on impulse, even compassionate impulse, vividly portrayed has made a lasting impression; it might actually save my own life next time I'm out and am tempted to rush into danger. So please don't underestimate how useful it can be for someone else to read a post that, to your credit, you find elementary or obvious.

Well, I got drawn in a bit more, so here's an overview on the King plagiarism story:

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:VVCYy...=clnk&cd=11

a "charlatan." Please educate me.

I'll remind you that a charlatan is " a person who makes elaborate, fraudulent, and often voluble claims to skill or knowledge; a quack or fraud."

Let me remind everyone that Dr. King received his Ph.D in Systematic Theology from Boston University.

Hi UMSTUDENT --

If you put the words "king" and "plagiarism" into google, you'll get an earful. Also there's this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087319045...ce&n=283155

I don't have the resources to follow up on this topic here just now, but that's at least a start.

Dear Michael,

Yo, Tiffany

Have I finally disappointed you?

Arab proverb: The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on. Let the caravan be our goodwill for each other, the “dogs” the conniptions our fool flesh is prone to. I’m gratified to be taken seriously enough to be an irritant, even if irritating is not my purpose. A friend of mine, a schoolteacher, once overreacted to a student who became very upset and then came into school with her mother for a three-way conference. In the course of the discussion, my friend, who happens to be a short man, eventually said to them both, “I know I’m not very big. But I’m not so small that I can’t say I’m sorry.” (It was the mother who related the story to me.)

Again, I apologize. First for the tone I set in my last reply, and second for doing to you what I said you have to me. Forgive me?

You betcha. I still remember that harboring resentment is like swallowing poison and then waiting for the other person to die.

(As you can tell) I am human, I do get frustrated and I do take it out on people in the wrong way sometimes. Didn't intend on insulting or offending you, and I'm sorry for also 'dissecting' your replies.

But that’s what I write them for!

Really I do enjoy 'conversing' with you.

Ah. Nice. Happy to make you happy.

Granted I may have a weird way of showing it, but I've been pretty stressed lately.

Sorry to hear that.

I am the first to admit, I need to practice what I preach more and give my problems to God. I've been hoping to work in the ER, but recently found out they aren't hiring.

We’re in a weird spot, speaking of weird: We don’t of course want people to be ill or injured, but we do want to do things that we couldn’t do if they were not. Something will turn up for you.

The EMT classes I hoped to take were cancelled.

Yow. Again, fortunately/unfortunately, there will continue to be a demand for your services and therefore opportunities for training. I once had a (non-ems) boss who used to remind us when things seemed to go awry, “You never know what it’s good for.” That’s not to dismiss or trivialize your frustration. I hate disappointments myself. Grrrr. I hope a new course opens soon. You’ll be good.

My whole family is going through some kind of a bug. I've been searching and searching for a job and now am trying to apply at a nursing home. ETC., ETC., ETC. It's just alot of things and I get overwhelmed. Again, I apologize for taking it out on you.

Probably better me than others closer at hand…

I still think you 'dissect' everything I write ,

I don’t know how else to think, sorry.

but it gives me a different perspective and I think I need it. Seems we both have reason to be sorry to the other. I think we're both coming to conclusions about each other that aren't yet founded.

Please tell me what conclusions about you I jumped to.

Believe me, I am sorry for giving you any wrong impressions and for over-analyzing your thoughts/words to me.

Wrong impressions I haven’t yet identified, and to be honest, my complaints have been from having my thoughts/words (apparently) under- rather than over-analyzed.

Thanks for trying to 'look out for me' and I do appreciate your insight. Your posts prove your depth and personal knowledge of many of these things and THAT is what I respect - your ability to debate or 'converse' w/o losing your ground.

Hmmm… Funny thing about losing one’s ground is that the loss isn’t always immediately apparent, so I take a wait-n-see attitude about whether I’ve really lost, gained, borrowed, begged, stolen ground or anything else (where moth and rust corrupt)

I think I lost my footing in my last post.

Tiffany, may I introduce you to your footing? Footing, I'd like you to meet Tiffany. In fact, I think you two may already know each other from other circumstances…

You are absolutely right, I CAN'T respect ALL beliefs.

HA! Michael does a happy dance all over the page, shimmy shimmy

I can't respect religions that include witchcraft, spells, human/animal sacrifice

Now if it were someone else and not I, you’d hear something about a human sacrifice at Golgotha, but you would be able to respond with an exemption clause for when the sacrifice is not initiated by mortal will. Nevertheless, an intriguing paradox in the Christian narrative…

, satanic worship, etc. I'm sure you feel the same.

All right, just this once I’ll grant you mind-reading capacities.

I mean, I try to respect people's searching (like Buddha, Islam, etc.). Yes, I also think everyone is searching.

At some level of consciousness or another…

You're right on another thing about me. I'm not good with uncertainty.

You sure about that? (Tee-hee.)

I like to be in control and, as I said, I need to practice what I preach! The hardest thing for me is not knowing.

Ah. Hard to fill brimming cup says the Zen master. Your Bible recommends “kenosis” – an emptying.

When I get close to people, I want to know that I'm going to see them again (either again, or for the first time)

sorry, didn’t catch what that meant

if/when something happens to me/them. I have people in my family that aren't saved and it really affects me, that not knowing.

Gosharooney I’d be happier to see you taking a more flexible approach to the category of “being saved.” The first Christians, as you probably know, didn’t call themselves “Christians,” but rather people of/on the way/the path. What path is that? What is the way (or Way) that Christ describes himself as? One thing we know about any way is that there ain’t no “there” there; if one believes (note: believes) that one has arrived, one will of course stop traveling. May I propose that you ask yourself whether your Christ is not already accompanying those who concern you, with the same tenderness, wisdom, comprehensive power, and interest that you have sensed His taking in you, and with infinitely more discretion than any human being can generate for, say, family members. May I propose that (say) your kin need from you the substance of unique gifts with which you have been created and that you have developed, rather than a message. I ask whether it may not be more Christlike to minister to others with your spontaneous interest rather than with a program. Perhaps what you offer that way is not as defined (= less control on your part), and for all that perhaps more valuable? Certainly more interesting! And I daresay costs more; as I mentioned a while back, as in “bought with a price.”

I guess that personality thing with me makes it harder for me to get close to people I 'don't know' about. Forgive me for that also?

As with the woman taken in adultery (uh, which is where the comparison stops), there was no need to forgive, so she heard instead of “I forgive you,” “Neither do I condemn you.”

I have to run again.

Habakkuk 2:2

Hope you've read this and understand.

I hope I have too, and trust that you’ll set me straight if not. Like most ems personnel, regardless of professed creed, I join in the worship of the school that hopes to find that “Man is the religion of the gods.”

I'll watch my words better next time.

Oh My Word

Thanks for your 'commitment'

Welx

and hope to hear from you again.

I’m never at a loss for an opinion.

God Bless you.

So long as Tiffany does too, Thank you.

Hello Michael,

Hello Tiffany

I said ‘just this once’ last time, but I guess I’ll address this mainly to you ‘once’ again.

I agree with you whole-heartedly on one thing, you have unusual commitment. I’m trying to understand why. Do you find someone in me that you like to debate with

Converse with

or do you simply enjoy trying to fluster me?

No.

Have you accomplished what your goal was?

I didn’t have a goal. I had a purpose, which was to respond to your post(s). I certainly never intended you harm, and having read what you wrote here I’m sorry that wasn’t clear. It would be inconsistent of me to ask you to “believe” that if you don’t experience it, so I only ask you to take note of my report. If your perceive ill-will on my part (I would class “simply enjoying trying to fluster you” as a sign of ill-will) then perhaps you can forgive me, and while you're at it disengage for your own safety and in order to withdraw the object of my temptation for indulging a vice. I notice, though, that Dustdevil, who was openly hostile to your message, has gotten much nicer treatment from you than I just have.

Reading and re-reading your last reply, I realize, by your contrasting statements, that there is nothing I can say that will satisfy you.

Please don’t try to satisfy me.

One sentence you seem to be trying to compliment me and the next you mock something I’ve said.

Any “mocking” was meant good-naturedly, to the attempted tune of “you and me against ‘it’" [the “it” being something one of us overlooked], rather than “me against you.” Again, I certainly never meant to offend you. You strike me as a crusader for truth. Well, I am too. So are others here. We’ve (of course) had different experiences in our different lives, and as I said earlier, I was attempting to spare you some frustration of the kind you reported. That's one of the things you said you were looking for here. For a while some of my efforts seemed at least a little useful to you; perhaps now no longer. Okle-doke; move on, then!

You dissect and analyze my every word!

Isn’t that a sign of respect for your thinking?

Tell me, what IS your goal in all this?

To learn, perhaps also to teach. From and to you and anyone else listening in.

You try to ‘show’ what you believe… How?

By typing. I really don’t know how else to answer that.

I’m not getting the picture. Either you aren’t painting it very well or I’m not seeing it very well.

Or both. Oh, there I go again, contaminating the simplicity of an either/or option.

I’ve seen your posts in other topics. You quoted Bible verses (which you didn’t particularly like me doing)

What I wrote to you about that was: “It is (for some of us) refreshing to read your sparkle and joy, and would be fun to see how your life develops. Bible quotes can be good reading, but as soon as someone who is really looking for communion senses that s/he is being deflected or avoided behind a literary shield, their despair is reinforced (a sin of which I don't claim to be innocent ).”

and also the Sermon on the Mount.

So?

Then you come on here and tear apart everything I say

If you have read my posts to you as “tearing apart everything [you] say” then I fear communication between us is impossible.

and analyze it in a way you THINK I meant it.

How else could I or anyone analyze what any other person says?

The Bible tells us Christians need to be united.

I refer you to your own analogy below.

They need to support and encourage each other when they think the other is doing something wrong. That’s not what you’re doing.

And here I thought I was doing just that; guess you know my motives better than I do.

Read 1 Peter 3:8-10, and Ephesians 4:1-5 if you will.

When I started this topic it was simply to ask what others believe. I re-read my first post and I still believe that I wrote it that way. I stated what I believe and asked others to do the same. I DO want people to experience Christianity the way I do, and, I agree, in the later posts I did try to ‘promote’ that. I still do and I believe I always will. In the Bible we are commanded to spread the Gospel to all who will hear and I need to focus on that. There are many that need to hear it and want to hear it. God says there is a time when each heart will be open to it and at that point they will either accept it or reject it still. That is the ‘free-will’ part and each will know the truth one day.

I know everyone won’t agree with me - I expected MANY not to agree with me. Yes, everyone has that right. Everyone has the right to their own beliefs and respect for them. I DO respect people for their beliefs and I would never condemn them for them.

Funny, I was feeling just a wee bit condemned as I was reading...

I WILL, however, continue to witness to those who know they need someone more. I think everyone must feel that and they try to fill it with the only things they know, whether it be a religion or lifestyle or career. I know, and MANY know, that Jesus is the ONLY one who can fill that void.

I think you must be taking my witnessing as if I were aiming it directly to you. I never said I HAD to convert you, but I DID state that I can’t tell if you need to be!

And what I said was that if that’s the most interesting thing you find about another person, then you may be missing some important things, and (if you can tolerate a compliment) that person will certainly be missing something important about you. Plus, you may leave them unhappy.

Your stand is not cemented in anything I can see

I’d be a fool to dispute your report

and I’m wondering if it’s built on rock or sand.

How okay is it for you not to know? For bright people like yourself, which is not a compliment this time, just stating the obvious, it can be difficult to tolerate uncertainty. Neither is that an insult, just another observation. I’m again suggesting that the binary severity, dare I say apparent rigidity, of the net you sometimes cast – black/white, good/bad, saved/unsaved; does (for example) Michael agree/disagree? Is he a believer/unbeliever? – may be letting some valuable fish get away (the metaphor is not mine).

You really are something else.

I’m trying to locate the agapic tone here and can’t quite tune in to it, but that may be the limitations of the medium.

You say one thing and contradict it with another.

What was that someone complained about “come on here and tear apart everything I say and analyze it in a way you THINK I meant it”? I would be grateful to have my contradictions pointed out. I do see is that my packaging doesn’t always match yours. As I’ve said before, I hope that’s okay with you, and as I’ve also said, I’m truly sorry if it’s not.

Am I to assume that you are trying to confuse me?

No. And thank you for asking.

No, I don’t preach to people that they are damned sinners heading for hell when I ‘preach’. I ‘preach’ that we are ALL sinners and all we need to do is acknowledge that before Jesus, ask His forgiveness and accept Him into our lives to receive the gift of eternal life and happiness.

I honestly don’t see the difference. Sorry.

I’m not into the ‘fire-and-brimstone’ stuff that terrifies people to God. God wants people to know He loves them, and He wants them to take comfort in that. He doesn’t want us to live our lives as if we stumble we’re doomed.

How do you treat those who (you think) stumble? Am I one of them? Has your tone been comforting?

That’s what Jesus died for. God KNOWS we’re going to stumble, we’re human! It’s not an excuse to sin, it’s reassurance that when we do, we’re forgiven.

Why don't I feel forgiven by Tiffany just now?

Let me give you a for instance. I know you won’t be able to see my side, but just try, okay?

What a nasty thing to say!

If you were driving along, off duty, and you see a driver, passed out on the wheel, slowly heading toward a detour sign where a bridge is out, would you try to stop the vehicle before it plummets 100 ft. below, killing all the occupants, or would you let it go because he didn’t ask you for help or wasn’t a close friend? It’s the same way when you see someone in a destructive lifestyle. If your best friend was a drug addict, would you not try to get him help? I realize you can’t help every addict, but would you try? Many think it’s too much trouble or not their business, but the ones that stick their necks out and TRY to help are the ones who succeed in the long run. I bet just one addict changing his life around would be reward enough to those who tried to help. That’s the same way I feel about Christianity. Refer to 1 John 3:16-17

What prevents you from attributing the same kind of motive to my posts?

What beliefs of yours do I respect? Well, I respect whatever your beliefs are, assuming you have some.

a) I find it (literally) incredible that you, or anyone, could respect all beliefs, let alone ones with which you are unacquainted.

I find certain beliefs unworthy of your, or anyone’s, respect (and I suspect you do too).

c) I would never have been interested in a dialogue with you if you had shown such a lack of discrimination as you espouse.

Still would like to know what they are. All you have to do

All I have to do? What will happen if I don’t?

is say, YES I do/NO I don’t believe in God, YES I do/NO I don’t believe in Jesus, YES I do/NO I don’t believe Jesus was the son of God and died on the cross, etc. How do you SHOW any of that stuff? There comes a time were actions just don’t speak for words.

Since it was an example you brought up last time, can you imagine being unable to respond in a yes/no fashion to someone who wants to know, more than anything else about you (except perhaps your age), whether you believe in your family -- before that person shows any interest in how you experience that family? Can you imagine that something so complex and intimate (as you’ve noted) might not lend itself to that simple reduction? Or if an honest answer to the question “Have you got any spare change?” is not always immediately accessible – since it will depend on the tone of the person asking, your assessment of his needs vs. his wants, evaluating his implicit claims against other obligations you have taken on previously…, how much the more these bigger questions? Since, as others on this site have amply demonstrated, “God” means different things to different people, can you imagine that I don’t see the value of two people’s agreeing or disagreeing on the existence of a thing named before they have reached an agreement on what the name means?

Well, I have to run.

Off ya go.

I’ll enjoy reading your dissection of this post also.

That was unkind.

Wanted to write earlier, but I haven’t had the chance.

You will have seen that everyone waited for you, so I was not alone in thinking the wait worthwhile. Compliment, like it or lump it.

I’ve been busy searching for a job

Good wishes for that.

and with family stuff.

And good wishes for that.

Hope everything is well with/for you and once again, God bless you.

I’ll end with 1 John 5:4,5 : “For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”

In Jesus,

Tiffany

If you have little miss big boobs batting her eyelashes at the preceptors for a better grade, how do you deal with her? That can be a MUCH more difficult situation

Require her to submit an essay on http://www.aafp.org/afp/980600ap/carter.html