Got Chewed Out For Going Too Slow

[AnthonyM83]

I picked up an OT shift (BLS) tand my partner was a part-timer (he was in medic school and FF applicant). Kind of hard-core type guy...been on the job for year and a half or so.

We got a call only a few blocks away. Traffic was light and fast, so I drove lights, no siren, except for intersections. Halfway there he tels me, "always use your sirens when going code 3" and turns my siren on for me. Of course, cars then started stopping in the middle of the road and I had to do an obstacle course.

We get to the call and are then transporting to hosp. with FF/Medic aboard. Pt is Weak/Dizzy and FF's are complainign about hospital's new rule requiring all W/D to go ALS. They're trying to find a way to BLS it and send us code 2 by calling it "general malaise", but Medic ends up riding with us. Point is, it's not really an urgent emergency.

I go lights, no siren, except intersections, about 55 in a 35 zone, and 3/4 way there, my partner pops his head in and says, "Why aren't you using your sirens?" I said, "You're only supposed to use them when necessary, it's in the book." He says, "ALWAYS USE YOUR SIREN WHEN GOING CODE 3".

So, I turn on my siren and as we're turning into the residential area near the hospital, I leave the siren on. I would usually cut it in this area, but he just yelled that phrase at me, so I leave them on. Of course, he pops his head out again and says, "You can turn them off now!"

Afterwards, he asks me what happend. I told him, I was trained only to use them when necessary. There's actually a DMV test question that tries to trick you into saying you use them whenever going code 3...and also I get there fast without sirens, because fewer people stop in the road for me. Thus, I don't have to go around them, don't have to oppose oncoming traffic, and smoother ride for the medic, and safer. Told him I left the siren on in residential because he had just yelled at me for not using it "whenver going code 3".

He said, he used to be an FTO and the way I was driving he would not pass me. That we need to be able to drive fast and need to make it in under 8 minutes to all these far fire station zones. For the rest of the day, he didn't let me drive. He would go lights and sirens on roads were average flow was already way over speed limit, cars would brake, he'd swerve like crazy, 75ish in 35 zones, for calls well within our 8 minute limit.

Extra stuff...if you like shorter posts, just read above:

I didn't press the issue 1) Because his word as an FTO probably mattered more to our management than my explanation

2) I really did want to try to learn from him, because he did have experience.

3) I usually don't like confrontations in EMS. Most people are in for FD, so I know we're going to have different outlooks.

I'm kind of angry and also don't want a bad name. I'm a natural fast driver. It's not a fear of going fast. I can go 120+ with barely an adrenaline spike. I've taken police EVOC where I was told I had very good skills. I love fast driving. I'm not really nervous about code 3, been doing it since I was 15 as an explorer, doing my calc homework as the officer drove to a call.

BUT I also don't want to kill someone who pulls in front of me. I don't want to be one of the hundreds of EMTs fired a year for car accidents. I'm also thinking about my patient and if traffic is going 60 in a 35, then it's faster and safer for me to work through that, better for my patient. And FTOs here do carry weight, but they also get NO trainer's training. Just a binder with things to teach us (straight from my original FTO's mouth). I also want to make a smooth ride for the medic. Also, most of these roads are wide (4-ish lanes), so no kid is going to run out from behind a car. And sirens also increase pt anxiety.

If ever a medic tells me to "haul ass" like I was warned they will sometimes, then I'll haul ass, but otherwise, why? The other reason I'll do it is if my 8 minutes are running low. If you take over 8 minutes, just once, it's a really big deal, suspensions and everything.

[AnthonyM83]

PS

I'm not sure what the point of my post was. I guess see what others think, but also to blow off some steam.

Thnx,

Anthony

[p3medic]

your partner sounds like a jackass, i'd refrain from trying to "learn"anything from him....there is NO reason to drive like that, for ANY call, and certainly not this one...IMO...

[NREMT-Basic]

First of all, used to be a FTO means no longer is, so he should just unbunch his shorts. Since we basics are called "drivers" that puts the responsibility for driving and maneuvering decisions in our hands, as long as we are behind the wheel. ANYONE, including my medic partner, that reached over and changed my emergency apparratus by flipping on the sirens without ok'ing with me would be drawing back a bloody stump. Totally unacceptable. By your description, he put you in danger by flippng on the siren in the middle of traffic, which is also massively unacceptable, and should be written up for doing so. If he believes that his judgement is better than the one behind the wheel who is judging and adjusting speed, watching traffic, moving for traffic, then let him drive. But after having just finished EVOC, I would fail him if I were to judge his driving. Granted things vary service to service, but I was told in EVOC that you should have a working relationship with your non-driving partner such that if you want something changed about the way you were running, if you want callout over the PA, you will let him know, except in case of a changing road scenario, where he should check with you before he starts throwing switches. Barring that, he should sit there, call out traffic for you and enjoy the ride. He may be gung-ho. Gung ho gets people dead. He may be a medic, but he is mostly definately a rookie in action and a frigging siren junky. In my system, a W/D patient may get sirens but there must be circumstances like chest pain, cardiac/pulmonary history, CHF, COPD...something. And also here, unless the medic specifically requests a code three ride, the driving EMT makes that decision...and it is usually discussed. We have intercoms in our rigs that go from the box to the cabin. If the medic wants to go hot all of the sudden and tells me to punch it, he better hang on cause we're gonna go like hell at that point. I have one particular medic who will just shout, "he's crunkin" and I know to pull out all the bells and whistles as it were. Basically what he did was dangerous, reckless, stupid and is roughly equivalent to grabbing the wheel from the passengers seat. If I were you, I would request another partner because this one sounds like a dullard without the common sense god gave a horse. We have one EMT in our system who tapes a three by five card to the panel that reads "If I am driving, keep your hands in your lap." All due respect to Medics and the jobs they do, but if you aint drivin', youre a passenger. You may not want to get any bad blood going and working in a little inbred department myself i can totally understand that, but this guy, by throwing on sirens and stopping traffic when you are driving and then driving recklessly himself is going to end up killing someone, very possibly any and all occupants of your rig. As for his not letting you drive, we are assigned who will drive on a given day by the ops manager...so he wouldnt pull that around here. Sounds like he needs a little administrative attitude adjustment. He may well have been an FTO, but so was my father for the PD he worked for...in the 80's. I say again, used to be means isnt anymore so his comment about that means absolutely nothing except that he is trying yet another way to pull what he feels is rank. NOT ACCEPTABLE.

[AnthonyM83]

Yeah...

PS he used to be only b/c he went part-time to do medic school. You can't be an FTO if you're only working part time.

Thankfully he's not my regular partner. Only for that shift. The crew got fired, so they were filling it with random people for a few days.

[akflightmedic]

Well well well...you have so many different points to comment on, I had a hard time figuring out where to begin!

First, your partner. He is new and inexperienced. A year and a half and used to be an FTO (WTF, how did this happen?). Forget what he thinks and be a little more choosier about who you admire or wish to learn from. I mean, everyone has something to offer, even if it is how NOT to do something, but please leave the mindset that since you are new, everyone must know more or better, especially since they have been on the job longer. That doesn't mean crap!

Technically, most rules/services dictate that when responding emergent, you will have both lights and sirens on. Is this safe? Yes it is, safe in the fact that it saves you and your service from serious litigation. Seriously, however, you should always run both and not just one or the other but it requires discretion as well. If you are bumper to bumper looking for a hole to cut through, there is no point in wailing the siren on the car in front of you. Occassional toots and beeps of the horn will suffice until you are again rolling unimpeded. It is all about common sense. Night time/residential areas, again use common sense. You should NEVER be speeding through a residential area anyways, so I usually turn everything off. Its not like the lights enable you to get there any faster or safer.

Now, as far as how you operated the vehicle. For the most part, you did right. You are in control, you are the operator. No matter what anyone says to you, who is ultimately responsible? You are! I do not even understand why you were running hot to start with if this patient was non emergent. If you were to get in a wreck or harm someone, would the patient care records justify your driving? That is something to always ask yourself. In all my years, there have been very few, and I do mean very few cases where speed was necesary for patients survival.

I remember when I first started EMS, I thought everything was emergent. That was just the mindset of where I was at the time. It took many years before I got a clue and realized it was total BS to be driving the way I was for the majority of the calls. There is absolutely no need for it more than half the time. I had a very cavalier attitude, like being in an ambulance gave me the right to speed. I would get angry when people would not move, couldn't they see I was in an AMBULANCE!!! Regardless of my patients condition, I used to have these thoughts. What a clown I was! This attitude is still prevalent today among so many new hires and young people. I see it all the time. I love being a preceptor cause I ask them, what is your hurry? WHy must we speed. There are so many stupid reasons/responses to this question, it is quite comical. Anything from, I just want to get the call done to they interruppted my dinner. Very rarely is the answer, the patient condition warranted it.

No one will dictate how fast I do or do not go. That is soley my decision as I have the wheel in my hands. I used to have a spaz partner that always wanted speed. He would yell at me and I would say ok and continue driving as I was. Half the time he didnt even realize that I never complied with his request. The other times we would have a nice llittle chat on the ER ramp. Remember, it is solely you that is ultimately responsible for the well being of all inside that vehicle. It is an awesome responsibility and not one to be taken lightly.

The 8 minute response time is great when it can be done properly and safely. I will not change my safe driving habits to conform to a company benchmark, nor will I work for one which expects me to do so. You making an extra minute here or there for the most part is not going to change the patient out come. I surmise that you are in a heavily populated area that has ALS engines first responding. There is a medic there within 4 minutes for the most part, so do not compromise your life, health, or safety for someone else's emergency. You are the most important piece of equipment (this is how you should view yourself) and you are no good to anyone else, much less yourself if you arrive damaged or dead.

I hate company benchmarks for time. DO you realize every time you break a rule to make the time, you have just supported the company in their decision to not place an adequate number of trucks in the street? You have justified why they should not hire more people. I am not saying be a rebel and drag ass every where you go, but never ever compromise your own well being to satisfy unrealistic numbers and continue the justification of understaffing or improper utilization of units.

Again, your partner is an idiot. To not allow you to drive the rest of the day is juvenile and moronic. It shows you his maturity level, which is nil. Not very smooth for someone who USED to be a FTO. Maybe there is a reason he is no longer an FTO. Driving 75 in a 35 zone is grounds for having his license pulled immediately. There is never a need to go that fast, period. This shows total disregard not only for people out on the road, but it is disrespect for you and himself. He sounds as if he has "Big Box Syndrome". Too many people climb behind the wheel and think they are impervious to all which may harm. This is such a tunneled visioned way of thinking and it is what gets people killed.

Me personally, I would get out of the vehicle. I have done that before. I told my partner to pull over and I got out. I called the supervisor and placed my unit out of service until such time that I got a new partner or the one I was with was remediated. I will not allow someone else to place me in harms way when it is completely preventable. I will not climb in a vehicle with a drunk driver, so why would I do it with a reckless driver? Can you live with yourself if the idiot kills someone and you never said anything the whole shift about his bad driving?

You are doing the right thing. You are entering this profession with a clear mind. You are able to recognize what is right and what is wrong. I would like to think that is is because of all the wonderful advice you get here and your ability to continuously ask questions. Stay on the path you are on, stand by your morals and convictions. Do not get lazy and go with the flow. There is a majority out there that do not do right and there are a few that try their hardest. Be one of the outspoken, who are looked down upon and fought against when we try to do what is right for all involved. In the end, others will coform and say, ya know, he was right. We should have done it this way a long time ago.

[NREMT-Basic]

To add to what AK most eloquently said, and I agree with every one of his points....In my system, we are told that in no case do we go more than 20 mph over the speed limit and we are advised to keep it at 10. 30+ over the limit is insane, stupid and here illegal for EMS. You are not in a high speed pursuit. And what happens to that patient waiting on the other end? Your partner blazing through traffic actually slows people down because they really dont know what to do to react and get out of the way and he is leaving them far to little time to do so. So what happens when your rig is on its side in an intersection because of your bonehead moron of a partner decides to play Indy race and that MI patient laying in their yard is decompensating? What happens when he takes you head first into a city bus injuring you, killing bus passengers while you, battered and bloody, reach for the mic to take yourself out of the service and transfer your call to another unit. And what about the units out of service to retrive his stupid a** from the wreckage of your rig, not to mention rescue squads, fire, extrication units. And if you both live, somebody's gonna ask why you didnt slow him the hell down. This guy should be out on his head. He is dangerous behind the wheel and that makes me think that he is also likely to be reckless in the care of his patients. If I were on the state EMS board and this were brought before me for review, he would have his license to practice pulled without a second thought for endangering his partner, the property of the service, everyone on the road and your crews patients. Next time he yanks you out from behind the wheel if you are ever cursed with him again, demand that he pull over and if he wont, grab the radio and request a supervisor intercept at a specific intersection due to the danger your partner is placing you in.

[emsbrian]

I'm going to keep it short and sweet (didn't know I could do that did you?)

You pretty much lay it out yourself, you know the rules follow them. I trust my drivers with my life. I can count the number of times I have driven (with a patient in the back) on little more then one hand. I don't know about this 8 minute thing, we get questioned for an unreasonable run time, but unless you have a small area to cover (never the case around here) 8 minutes is pretty much a perfect response time, and you can't expect that every time.

Stay safe, there is a lot of FF/medics out there who only do it for the pay, they don't care about the patient. They are adrenaline junkies. I know I'm going to get bitched at by any who are on EMT City, BUT IF YOU'RE READING THIS YOUR ONE WHO CARES. It is true your world would possibly be valued less, but as a supervisor the fact that my newbies could be anal was an advantage. You can learn bad habits of your "experienced" medics that way.

As far as the siren, rules vary a lot obviously. My particular experience says its a judgement call of the drivers (unless I say "we need to be there!!!"). No need in a residential unless you expect traffic or pedestrians. If your hauling ass through residential then I would probably have them on just for worry about kids and the such. (even though they may end up staring instead of moving) But for the most part it is to dangerous on residential roads to speed much anyways. In general we don't speed more then 10 over for safety reasons if speeding. Interstate/highways/major thoroughfares always get siren, but if you could flow better without it as an in-charge I would not mind one bit, as long as you judged it safe.

If you truly need to speed (example: working a code) you need to have a PD escort. I know these are rear, but the places I have worked I have tried to work with the PD to be able to arrange them. They respond to all codes when we call them back to dispatcher as on scene with arrest. (along with everybody and their mothers around here) And when we leave they shut down intersections in front of us, so we can go full speed code 3 safe.

Remember, if we hit someone, we just screwed up royally. The patient is screwed AND the person you hit, never a good scenario. Well I'll shut up now, since this wasn't short. Just remember to stand up for yourself if you feel its better for the patients. (or just rant on here, so we can join in.

[ERDoc]

Your partner is a tool. He is a prime example of why EMS lacks respect and few recognise it as a profession. He sounds like the kind of person that would hopefully be weeded out if more education was required. There are very few calls which actually need lights and sirens. Weak and dizzy, not likely to need it, depending on vitals (even then L&S may be overkill). Most codes DO NOT need L&S. Traumas are one of the few calls that I can think of that would justify L&S, although it is hard to make true generalizations as each case is different.Obviously the law varies from area to area, but overall it is up to the guy in charge to determine if the call should be run with or without L&S. If is decided that L&S are needed, then it is up to the driver, and him/her alone to make the best decision on how to do that safely. Long story short (too late) your partner is a tool.

[Asysin2leads]

Stay safe, there is a lot of FF/medics out there who only do it for the pay, they don't care about the patient. They are adrenaline junkies. I know I'm going to get bitched at by any who are on EMT City, BUT IF YOU'RE READING THIS YOUR ONE WHO CARES. It is true your world would possibly be valued less, but as a supervisor the fact that my newbies could be anal was an advantage. You can learn bad habits of your "experienced" medics that way.

Yeah, its pretty much established business and public safety dogma that rookies quoting textbooks they have memorized but have not yet understood make the best leaders. Older, more experienced medics may have bad habits, but younger ones are dumb and will kill the patient.