MedicNorth Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 There is no doubt that the correct thing to do here would be turn the money in - both because it is the right thing to do, and because there is always a chance that someone is going to be looking for that cash, and you would not want to be the mouse for that kind of cat! I have had a similar incident - showed up at a bus MVC, and had one black tag with an entire suitcase of money popped open beside him - it would have been extremely easy to toss it into the bush and come back another time to retrieve it - the thought did occur to me , for about 2 seconds. Combine fear of reprisal with knowing what is really right, and the proper response will be there for most of us. That being said, I guess we don't truly know until the situation actually arises, right? Nice scenario, AK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akflightmedic Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 That being said, I guess we don't truly know until the situation actually arises, right? I appreciate the responses from everyone. Its interesting to see what the majority say they would do. However, I believe this is one of those scenarios that you truly can not answer until you walk in those shoes. It is impossible to know what your mindset would be or become if you were in a position of being beat down year after year, life becoming more extreme day by day and then something like this falls upon you. Would you change your mode of thinking, feelings, beliefs? What if I made the situation more extreme? Lets say your car was just reposessed, there is no city transit system and without your vehicle, you will lose your job which will only further comoplicate your already financially troubled life. You have no mode of transportation whatsoever to continue to get to work(you have already tried everything.) Its just drug money. Do you take only what you need and donate the rest, or do you continue to suffer in silence knowing you did right by turning it in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 I must say I am disturbed by the line of questioning. Can someone please tell me why a person who must deliberate about whether or not to steal should be trusted to care for helpless patients? Am I the only one who finds this a little disgusting? Maybe I don't get the joke, but if the joke is unclear to me, how much clearer will it be to someone with no background in this vocation who has tuned in here wanting to know how emergency medical personnel think? If you believe it's wrong for others have more money than you, and/or you judge yourself too poor to resist temptation, then remove yourself from it, or at least find a more sportsmanlike victim. Any one of us, and anyone we love, is liable suddenly to become incapacitated and unable defend our property from predators. How would you want your more powerful caregiver to treat you or your mother? Are we next going to discuss the relative merits of different justifications for sexual abuse? I don't see any ambiguity, sorry, and I hope this is just a game and not really a question for anyone here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akflightmedic Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 Not to add any undue stress to anyone or to confuse any general public members that may run across this site, this is a test that I have used among others in my EMT and medic classes. It is merely me probing other's brains, examining their thought processes, and then me saying "ok, thanks for sharing". Maybe I should publish the results some day on what this test demonstrates as how it relates to different levels of care providers and compare their answers at start of term versus end of term. It is an interesting process how people will change their answers as the story changes. Start off with is it ok to take money from a patient. then compound that by saying he is a drug dealer, you are broke, blah blah blah. As the story changes, some people begin to rationalize their decisions after changing them or they empathize with the hardluck EMT in the story and they justify it by that. As we go through this process, I like to wonder why they change their answers. Why does worsening the situtaion make the theft anymore acceptable? I will point out unscientifically of course, the answers vary greatly with the above mentioned groups and time of term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Plain Ruff Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 ok we can all take the high road and turn the money in. Heck I've had one patient that fit this criteria - 8400 from one pocket and 11k in the other, he was an MVA patient and unconscious. After I found that money I immediately radioed the dispatch and had the highway patrol meet me at the ER. I turned the money over. It turned out this was this guys life savings that he withdrew to pay off some bills and debts he owed. But then again, If I thought about it and reflected on it - I might have taken the money or a little bit of it. But I would have had to listen to that little voice in the back of my head. No thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 As we go through this process, I like to wonder why they change their answers Well, I'm all for science, but I suspect it's a delicate matter to rehearse a practitioner in justifying the exploitation of vulnerable dependents. I can only hope that after you have methodically desensitized impressionable neophytes to what are, frankly, evil suggestions, you conclude by emphatically articulating your ethical demand concerning what is and what is not even remotely acceptable behavior. Playing this kind of game seems a little chancy when the players actually hold the power to make such decisions. I somehow trust that in your presentation, you draw the right lesson from the exercise, but I'm not at all sure everyone else would engage in the exercise with the same restraints in place. To me it looks like playing with fire, which only an expert can manage safely, but maybe that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Say, do we get to revise our "Who would you like to meet" answers now? :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akflightmedic Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 Sorry Michael, I did not present my entire set up for when I deliver this lesson but rest assurred it is a great lesson. I just did not wish to weigh in too heavy on my opinion early in the discussion as it may or may not sway others from posting what they really feel. This kind of exercise is also best conducted when you are able to view the body language as well as their responses. Often more is said when one is not speaking. But I feel this exercise is relevant, as it shows the neophytes that not only are they trusted with people's lives, personal care, etc, but they can also have an effect in areas they never thought of. This is not a "How To Defraud" course but merely an eye opener for them to realize they are going to enter many new situations and for them to be prepared. I try to present as many angles as possible during my course delivery so they may have a grasp on everything possible they may encounter. We have such awesome responsibillity and in order not abuse that, we must be aware of what it is. While most instructors skim through the ethics chapter, I delve deeper. I try to show them, teach them the differences between sympathy/empathy, and of course ethics. I present many different exercises and scenarios just to make them think. It is not a "game", but it is a tool to use to further evaluate and develop sincere, dedicated EMS professionals. Edit: I missed your link the first time. I like that. Yes, I am no expert but the exercise on the surface seems to always turn out fine and the students really enjoy it. A lot of positive feedback, because if not themselves to worry about, they now know this type of behavior can/does exist in our career and they are more apt to be on the lookout for it as well. We have to watch out for each other out there, sometimes that may mean we are required to be a coworker or friend's little voice of reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 may or may not sway others from posting what they really feel 8) able to view the body language including any sticky fingers for them to be prepared Good! I try to present as many angles as possible a few angels wouldn't hurt either have a grasp on everything possible they may encounter excluding cash and bling please in order not abuse that Aha! A Value Judgment. Home again, home again, jiggety-jig While most instructors skim through the ethics chapter' date=' I delve deeper[/quote'] Deep pockets * Whew. * (I know, I'm such a wuss.) I meant in the sense of "A theoretical construct in game theory in which players select actions and the payoffs depend on the actions of all players." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaser Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Welcome to the holiday season.... :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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