nbsp Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Lot of rambling for one that has not studied theology, or one that appears to misunderstand of what "faith" is. For every argument against, there is an argument for. For simplistic measures this thread should die. R/r 911 Yes I know I ramble terribly and I apologize for it. Some would think I'm a crazyman by the way I try to explain things. Can you tell me what kind of information I would learn if I were to take theology, or an example of something that I should know? As I said before I fail to see a good reason for taking a theology class and my max unit limit is ridiculously low, limiting me to only 3 classes and a 1-unit "class". Or maybe I'm misinterpreting the word "studied". Either way I never did because I didn't see why I should, or how that would make me more qualified in these types of discussions. and I noticed that statement of arguments for and against has come up before in this thread and while this is true, there are better arguments and worse arguments. It's not like all statements hold exactly the same value, or like you can come up with equally good arguments for and against the holocaust. In fact I thought one of the purposes of a forum was to read and write these arguments. DwayneEMTB, I give your post an atheist equivalent to an Amen. (would that be a ditto?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nbsp Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 It is obvious you are still living under the umbrella of your parents . Why do I say this? Why would anyone have to illegally download or buy the DVD's of South Park? South Park is on every night on multiple stations, so I am guessing your parents do not allow you to watch it or they have all those channels locked out of your TV. Or maybe you don't have television instead you just sit around reading books from Al Gore or Cindy Sheehan. My point is you are in a very controlled environment, what you see, hear and just plain experience has not challenged you to think beyond your own doorstep. Uuuuuhhhh you're correct but on incorrect assumptions. I guess I misstated, but I meant to watch that exact episode without waiting for it to happen to be on tv you would have to download it or buy the dvd. I watch whatever I want to whenever I want to. My parents are very liberal in that they don't put many restrictions on me at all, I don't know what kind of crazy environment you grew up in. My political views are not the subject of this thread, though I will say I am less liberal than those two mentioned. You are correct that I live under the umbrella of my parents, it's a month before my college starts and I don't see a point in renting an apartment for such a short time. Finding your own strength at your age is easy, you haven't been challenged yet. Does that mean I'm later going to suddenly have a revelation when life becomes too hard and then find comfort in religion? BAH HUMBUG :twisted: . Take this advice from someone who thought just like you (sigh) 20 years ago. You don't live in a community you live in an agenda, just like I grew up in. Do yourself a favor, move away. Live life outside of the bay area, then and only then can you truly understand what community and life is all about. I.... can't imagine this agenda you're talking about... but moving out of this area won't be possible any time soon since my college is only 2 hours from home, unless I can transfer into that other college that I was hoping to get into. But won't moving away put me in another "agenda", just so I can conform to their beliefs too? P.S. Have some fun, print off what you posted above. Save it and in twenty years read it again, I guarentee you'll get a good laugh out of it. This one I can actually agree with. It's something we should all do. We don't realize how stupid we are until we grow a little bit older. (or a lot.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scaramedic Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Does that mean I'm later going to suddenly have a revelation when life becomes too hard and then find comfort in religion? BAH HUMBUG :twisted: No, keep in mind I said forget the whole is there a god debate. I am talking pure life experience, I could care less whether or not you find god. Look at my earlier post on this thread, faith is a personal issue. I am simply saying you have not been tested enough to find your own inner strength, when you are truly tested you will understand. Hell I just was tested last year, when my the best friend I ever had died, my father. Life does not have one big final test, its a whole shitload of pop quizzes. You never see them coming but that's when you are going to find out who you really are. I was just responding to the "these are my beliefs and they will never change" attitude in your post. I.... can't imagine this agenda you're talking about... but moving out of this area won't be possible any time soon since my college is only 2 hours from home, unless I can transfer into that other college that I was hoping to get into. But won't moving away put me in another "agenda", just so I can conform to their beliefs too? See that's what I am talking about. A Real community does not care about your beliefs. A real community accepts you for who you are. In a true community you do not have to "conform" to any ones ideal. That is the problem with the communities we grew up in, we believe we have to follow the community rules. Guess what, we don't. Real community is a mixture of ideas and beliefs, racists next to minority, Jew next to Christian, Muslim next to Atheist. That is community, not a bunch of closed minded people spouting their beliefs to everyone around them and shunning those that disagree. This goes for right and left wing communities, you need to find somewhere in the middle. I seriously doubt you can find a truely middle of the road community in the bay area. This one I can actually agree with. It's something we should all do. We don't realize how stupid we are until we grow a little bit older. (or a lot.) OK, I am going to ignore that "a lot" older comment! Peace, Marty :joker: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrfyinFlyinSrvc Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 I don't even know what my beliefs are, but I do have a theory of what hell is: It is sitting in front of a pc, subscribed to an infinite number of forums with an infinite number of subjects, yet every single topic returns to an acrimonious debate on personal religious beliefs. I swear, it doesn't matter if the forum is dedicated to coin collecting, aircraft, or tiddly-winks, sooner or later, the religious thread is started. I'd start a forum solely for believers and non-believers to argue, but there ain't that much bandwidth in the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eydawn Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Just a couple of points. I know what I believe. I know what makes me believe it unequivocally. However, because I have established a relationship with a higher power that makes sense to me, it does not necessarily mean that you must also adhere to the same tenets and belief system that works for me. We're all different; at the core, it is not about how many rosaries you say, or how many devotional pilgrimages you make to Mecca, or how many spoons you juggle in awe of the flying spaghetti monster... it's about the personal relationship between you and the higher power as you percieve it. Some people call it God. Some people call it Allah. Some people call it nature, or love, or any other number of names; some people have no concrete word that goes with it at all. Some people feel no higher presence in the world. And that's just fine. And really... since I'm human, I can't concretely prove, nor do I have the right to say, that my system of belief is *better* than yours or the *right* one... because in the end the joke might be on me. Therefore, I listen to what everyone has to say (and you wouldn't believe how many similarities there are among the differences..) because I don't have the right to shut anyone out. Doesn't mean I have to wholeheartedly accept everything I hear- but I can respect it and try to understand it as much as possible. Doesn't mean my belief is any weaker or stronger based on what anyone else tells me. It's irrelevant, because it's not about anyone else. It's about what I believe, what I feel, what I know and understand... and with some people, I am able to share that, and with others I'm not. On the subject of evolution, please take the time to read Wonderful Life (I can't remember the author at present)- a narrative about the Burgess Shale Fauna. That may clarify some misunderstandings about evolution as a concept (which many people, even 2nd year biology undergrad students) might hold. That said... who said that the existence of evolution disproves the existence of God, that God disproves the existence of evolution, or that the two have nothing to do with each other at all? Perhaps evolution is the mechanism established by God to bring about change within the world... anyone who appreciates any sense of a complex being at all could not hope to think that something could be created as static (eg 2 little dalmatians and 2 little scorpions exactly as they are today....) More later. Wendy NREMT-B Roman Catholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Wendy, please stop making sense. You're cramping our style! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uglymedic Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I realize this is going to stir up some ca-ca, but some things were said that I wanted to respond to, and I also wanted to add in my own voice to this "discussion". This is one of the ones that really make my head hurt. The whole first paragraph translates in my head to: "I am going to call you an idiot and a jerk in a pretentious manner, ignoring the fact that this will get me nowhere in a manner still practiced only by third-graders and congressmen. I will now use a cliche but rather cool method to make my next argument seem more valid." Then he says "Atheists are stupid materialistic bastards. I will now reference a episode of the rather awesome show, "South Park", claiming it to make me more knowledgeable than you, while offering no information on what it was about or things learned from it. And watching this episode will somehow make you greatly more intelligent, nevermind that in order to watch it without watching the show every day, and waiting for it to be shown on tv as a re-run by chance, you would have to either illegally download it or buy a dvd of an entire season, making it rather impractical. Now please listen to my poetry while ignoring all of the bad things of the world. Isn't this so blissful?" A rose proves to you that god exists? Are you freaking kidding me? EDIT: "And watching this show will somehow make you greatly more intelligent, nevermind that in order to watch it you would have to..." CHANGED TO: "And watching this episode will somehow make you greatly more intelligent, nevermind that in order to watch it without watching the show every day, and waiting for it to be shown on tv by chance, you would have to..." This is honestly the first time using the "quote" things, so I'm hoping this will work. NNDB, I was particularly amused by the fact that 1.) it made your head hurt, and 2.) "I am going to call you an idiot and a jerk in a pretentious manner, ignoring the fact that this will get me nowhere in a manner still practiced only by third-graders and congressmen. I will now use a cliche but rather cool method to make my next argument seem more valid." Ahhh, yeah. Have you read any of your pretentious e-mails? You're going to assume that persons of faith are nothing more than morons yourself? The part about this thread that I don't like is those people such as NNDB and Ace who talk down to people of faith and treat them as idiots for believing in something they can't see or comprehend. There is no way to prove to an atheist that God exists just as there is no way for an atheist to prove that God doesn't exist. I also agree with the person (forgive me I can't remember who - and I'm paraphrasing here) said that evolution can be part of God's work. The average human height alone has increased by what? Six inches over a hundred years? Why can't other things change? NNDB, I'm going to try and not put you down because honestly, from reading your threads, you appear to be a pretty intelligent person. That's based solely on your writings. I don't condemn anyone for their beliefs because that's not my place. I work with a Wiccan and we have very spirited discussions about higher powers. Also, please enlighten me as to the difference between atheists and agnostics. I forget. I will agree with others that I'd like to see you after a few hundred thousand miles on them tires to see if you have the same cynical opinions you have now. Puppy. Lastly, and I've said it before, the only ca-ca that will be stirred is from people treating other people like idiots. Yes, I am passionate and may have reacted rather harshly but Jesus wasn't afraid to open a can of whup-*ss when he kicked the money changers and the vendors out of the temple either. Oh, and yes, God is in a rose. Let's put it another way, I just can't see something like glycogenesis just happening. Let alone all the other mysterious and wonderful things that exist in our world. Peace out! ug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 "Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even specially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities." ~ Alan Bloom "When an objection cannot be made formidable, there is some policy in trying to make it frightful; and to substitute the yell and the war-whoop, in the place of reason, argument, and good order." ~ Thomas Paine "If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table." ~ Advice for lawyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Someone mentioned what exactly is faith a few posts back, and to me, faith is best defined as this: "Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Someone mentioned what exactly is faith a few posts back, and to me, faith is best defined as this: "Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true." You, and the Apostle Paul: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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