Vol. EMS service for Schools???

[Dustdevil]

As Spock said you don't have a great track record for respecting volunteers

Spock's opinion is irrelevant. Did either of you even read the original post? This isn't even about volunteers! Brock is talking about a paid service that allows students to ride along. :roll:

or even specifically college EMS (as I found out).

Actually, this is the very first time I have ever even considered the question of campus EMS before, so I have no "track record" on the subject. Perhaps you guys are hearing voices in your head. :?

I don't mean to disrespect your experience, because yes you have a lot more than most people around here, but try doing something positive for once instead of ripping on every volunteer, every kid who goes to college and is in EMS.

Again I as, WTF are you talking about? The original poster asked for honest opinions and I gave mine. I didn't rip anybody. I didn't say a goddamn thing about "basics" or "volunteers." All I said was that there was usually no statistical justification for Campus EMS programs, rendering them pointless, unnecessary, and fraught with liability whether basic, advanced, paid, volunteer, or otherwise. That's exactly what Brock asked us for. Opinions. You obviously agree with my opinion. And you didn't hesitate to give yours. So what's the problem? Only certain people are allowed to give opinions around here anymore? Feck off :thebirdman:

Show me a campus that actually has enough EMS runs to justify such a program, and I'll show you a campus that needs to crack down on drinking!

[PRPGfirerescuetech]

I think that primarily, it is whackerism with no significant benefit. Its only value is as a first responder organisation. And even then, in a town big enough to have a college, EMS is going to be there pretty quickly, usually before a volunteer FR organisation can muster a squad and respond. If you are using such a squad as primary responders who then decide whether or not EMS is summoned, you're doing your patients a disservice and just looking for trouble.

And really, how often is EMS called to your campus? Do the numbers even come close to suggesting a need or feasibility?

This is definitely not "experience" for the students. It's just negligible exposure that probably won't even happen unless there are riots on your campus. So, best case scenario, one or two students end up responding to take the blood pressure of a couple people with dizziness, headache, or stomach ache during the entire program. Big deal. You're a student, not a medic. So you're not going to be performing any real procedures. And those few things you are doing (vitals, oxygen, maybe BLS CPR if you really get lucky), are simply the mundane monkey skills you should have perfected by now anyhow. So that shoots down the whole angle of it being a benefit to the students.

So, the campus doesn't need it. It provides no significant benefit to the school. And it provides no benefit to the students participating. And it is fraught with liability. Yeah.... sounds like a great idea to me. A real wankers dream.

You contradict yourself here...

On one hand, you say in a big college town, EMS should be close enough that you dont need the college service. On the other hand, you say their call volume at the college negates their worth.

Your baseline principal your trying to get across is right. There is NO reason to put together a EMS service with a primary goal of giving EMS experience for students. We've beat that principal to death.

I will say this. Ive been to this town Dust. Ive seen this service. Without the college, there is nothing in that area. Should they be ALS? Sure. Thats more the fault of the state, than anything else, a systematic failure.

But, if you work within the confines of the F-ed up system in place, they provide good quality BLS care to a fairly rural area that needs it. Their volume makes the service legitimate, so really, what does the service hurt?

To summarize, the service in and of itself isn't bad,what they do is good actually,just their academic purpose of having the squad itself is stupid.

[Dustdevil]

You contradict yourself here...

On one hand, you say in a big college town, EMS should be close enough that you dont need the college service. On the other hand, you say their call volume at the college negates their worth.

Hmmm... I see those as complimentary points, not contradictory. But you know more about the place than I do. I just know that in many years of working college towns, it was rare to make an EMS run to the campus. And in 9 years as a college and university student, I don't recall ever seeing an ambulance respond to my campus. Obviously, mileage will vary by location.

[brock8024]

Dust, I am sorry u are getting the raw end of the deal here. I respect ur opinions no matter what. What my point is that students need more clinical time and education to master the art of history taking and patient assessment. Here in Oklahoma there are ten services that have went under due to either money or not enough staff. One town even had a guy die because it took a out of town service over 25 Min's to get there because that town does not have enough EMT;s. What i was wondering is why do schools not pimp out their students that are licensed. I mean hell make them a first responder if u have to. Just something to help the community and the students.

[Eydawn]

Holy crap! What college towns did you work? I wanna know how you got so lucky to have it be so quiet! Last year we had 3 rigs run to my small liberal arts campus of 1000 folks... (one was for me, but that's another story, lol). This year we've had at least 6.

Western Michigan University, right next door to us, has had several that I've heard of; they're a large state school. I live 5 minutes from the post that covers our side of town; they get their butts run off at all hours (I've started identifying who's on shift by the way the siren is used) and sometimes the BLS company gets thrown into the 911 system because everyone else is running.

Dust, I'm struggling with the idea of starting a campus response team, and I see your point- would we get to do much more than blood pressures, and nurse along the "I drinked too much and my RA's not allowed to do nuffin" characters? I don't know. I do know that our health center is only open at limited hours which are not very conducive to getting effective health care for non-life threatening emergencies (because the 911 rigs respond really quickly, we have a good record with keeping folks alive). I believe it might help us as a campus to have volunteers who are willing to respond with ace bandages and ice packs, or are willing to sit up in the staffroom with the drunk who's not sick enough to go to the ED... because his/her friends are too drunk to effectively monitor them... it would give those of us who end up doing it anyway a chance to have something to put on our resumes in the future, and make sure that something is available to students. Then again.. whackerism could crop up easily, especially with who I have to work with at the moment.

Your points are quite valid.. it sounds like Penn State has it doing well though.

Wendy

NREMT-B

CO EMT-B

MI EMT-B

[SSG G-man]

I recall recently seeing a link to a student run program at VA Tech and I think either Georgetown or George Washington (or both) in DC have similar programs. With the way the DC EMS system sometimes works, it is probably a good thing for the students there to have the programs. Found the links

http://www.rescue.vt.edu/

http://germs.georgetown.edu/

I guess I was wrong about GWU

Sarge

[06weasel]

Did either of you even read the original post? This isn't even about volunteers! Brock is talking about a paid service that allows students to ride along. :roll:

Actually really neither paid, as he suggested the Paramedic be paid and everyone else be volunteer/in training. You still didn't address the point about why you keep referring to them as if the "real" EMS is going to show up.

Actually, this is the very first time I have ever even considered the question of campus EMS before, so I have no "track record" on the subject. Perhaps you guys are hearing voices in your head. :?

Actually I was more referring to the fact that you told anyone who isn't going to college for specifically EMS to "get out altogether"...because in all likelihood schools and students we are referring to are not necessarily all going to be paramedics. Georgetown and VT I don't think are particularly known for medic programs, so most likely the VEMS people down there aren't going to be medics. And according to you "If you're not serious about contributing to the profession, then get out altogether" because getting a degree in something else means you're not serious about contributing.

Again I as, WTF are you talking about? The original poster asked for honest opinions and I gave mine. I didn't rip anybody. I didn't say a goddamn thing about "basics" or "volunteers." All I said was that there was usually no statistical justification for Campus EMS programs, rendering them pointless, unnecessary, and fraught with liability whether basic, advanced, paid, volunteer, or otherwise. That's exactly what Brock asked us for. Opinions. You obviously agree with my opinion. And you didn't hesitate to give yours. So what's the problem? Only certain people are allowed to give opinions around here anymore? Feck off :thebirdman:

Show me a campus that actually has enough EMS runs to justify such a program, and I'll show you a campus that needs to crack down on drinking!

Again more of a reference to your previous posts, plus the fact that I still don't understand why you refuse to see them as EMS but rather just a first responder organization that waits for EMS to show up.

Yes, of course you can give you opinion, and you do. Wasn't trying to say you shouldn't. You're right you didn't say anything about basics, and I'm still not sure what you're trying to say about quality of care of campus EMS members and I'm not sure whether that's connected to their age, their training, or being volunteer.

Anyway I dunno maybe I'm confused about what you're trying to say, sure wouldn't mind having that cleared up though though!

Eydawn: my understanding of how PSU's EMS system is tangential, my experience with them comes from what you can glean from their website ( http://www1.sa.psu.edu/uhs/ems/emshome.cfm ), what I know about the school, and a few members of the system there. Therefore take it with a grain of salt. Also what kind of calls did those 3 rigs run on? I'm shocked, honestly. When I looked into the EMS system for the college I'm going to (it's a QRS unfortunately) most calls (487 of them for 2003 I think) were either minor trauma or alcohol related, and they even respond into the town... I'm curious to know the call volume and breakdown around you that keeps 3 rigs busy.

[Dustdevil]

You still didn't address the point about why you keep referring to them as if the "real" EMS is going to show up.

Because I was envisioning a first responder organisation, not a transporting ambulance service. I have never heard of a campus with their own transporting ambulance, so that didn't even cross my mind. It has nothing to do with the quality of care, level of care, paid vs. volunteer, or age of the participants. Remember, I am one of the few here who speaks out against age limits for medics. It's all about feasibility. And from a feasibility standpoint, the whole campus EMS concept just doesn't seem to be viable from any point of view. And I don't appreciate people putting words into my mouth that I never said.

[brock8024]

I guess where I am coming from is that students need more time than they are givin to learn what we need to learn. what I mean is where I go to school it is a 2 year degree program. My pharm class is a 3 hour class my EKG class is 3 hour class. That is not counting my Paramedic classes. So we get summer breaks and things. I feel like schools could some how get us more experience by students riding over the summer with services. I am all for more education and seems like there is a way we can get it just have to find the way.

I am by no means bashing vo tech schools or anything. As a matter of fact i have no idea how they work. I do now though by taking my paramedic class at a college there is alot we cover and go over and i do not see how they do this at a vo tech. in the alotted time.

My point to this whole post was how do we get better assessment skills while in school. clinicals are good but we only get some many of those and why waste a summer when we could be learning and practicing our skills that are the most important.

Brock

[Dustdevil]

I agree with that.

What are they giving you in the way of field experience and internship? Is it seriously inadequate, or do you just want more?

I definitely believe that a medic school should provide you with hundreds, if not thousands of hours of field experience before cutting you loose to practise. But I can't envision many campus situations where it would be feasible to create that experience within the campus environment. College students just don't get hurt or sick often enough to keep an ambulance or first responder squad busy. Certainly not enough for a whole class full of students to get any of the action. Just seems like you'd spend hundreds of hours sitting around waiting for the alarm that never comes, with only one or two of your students ever actually responding to anything. And administration would have to be crazy to shell out thousands of dollars to provide something they already get for free from experienced, full-time providers. Again, I just don't see how this thing could ever be justified on any level whatsoever on any campus.