How skilled are Paramedics when it comes to response driving ?

[runswithneedles]

That`s propably just about the arrogance of younger driver`s Gulfmedic was reffering to. Just saying.

Don`t really care for the hippyish thing either - in the end, you`re not there to care for that "godlike" machine. You`re supposed to drive it. Reality is, you`re often gonna change your wheels - so there`s nothing better than changing wheels during training, so that you can get accustomed to different driving experiences, etc.

Just my cents.

Each truck has its own set of unique qualities is what I was getting at.

I noted that you state that you have been driving since 16 years old and also that you completed drivers courses..... Would you say that this contribute to you being more skilled than other newly qualified paramedics .... I think the question is more about those guys without previous experience and without completing a drivers course, should they receive training before being aloud to respond or be in control of a vehicle ?. The guys that complete their paramedic training and then given the responsibility to drive without the experience and skill. ( also take skill retention in consideration, so its not only newly qualified people) Would you say that a drivers course is beneficial ?

my point with my soap box was dont put a number on anything. A 19 year old can get his medic and administer controlled substances and be in charge of someones livelihood and yet cannot play a round of poker of have a beer (emphasis on "a")

it would be beneficial to have a defensive driving course to refresh on the foundations of driving itself. but its more important you get these young guys (younger than me) out there driving different type in a low risk enviroment rather than going through cones at 10 miles per hour and watching videos. I can guarantee you. I run hot and I see a tight curve im not thinking of the physics and the prinicpals behind what is about to possible kill me. Heck out in this region we can run cofr three in the middle of nowehre to get the rescue randy jitters of of them. Its how they did it for me. more truck time (faster than 10 miles per hour on the windiest road you cant find with deep grades going downhill)

Edited May 6, 2012 by runswithneedles

[Asysin2leads]

it would be beneficial to have a defensive driving course to refresh on the foundations of driving itself. but its more important you get these young guys (younger than me) out there driving different type in a low risk enviroment rather than going through cones at 10 miles per hour and watching videos. I can guarantee you. I run hot and I see a tight curve im not thinking of the physics and the prinicpals behind what is about to possible kill me.

Proper defensive driving technique is to enter a curve at a sufficiently low speed as to not require the use of the brake while in the curve. Maybe you should stick to watching what ever sequel to the Fast and Furious is currently out and leaving the driving to others.

[paramedicmike]

I run hot and I see a tight curve im not thinking of the physics and the prinicpals behind what is about to possible kill me.

You'd better be thinking of the physics and principles behind what is about to possibly kill you. If not for your sake then for your partner's sake and that of the patient you either have in the back or are going to pick up. It's one thing if you're going to continue to demonstrate such stupidity on your own time. Risk the life of your partner and patient because you're too young, ignorant, arrogant and stupid to know any better and you are going to have problems. Big problems. Problems from which you'll be lucky to walk away in one piece.

[Kiwiology]

I had some very good thinkings about this topic tonight with others and it's very simple as we saw it; the biggest since problem is the general complacency of drivers and the real cultural shift towards poor driving being more accepted in society; combine that with the bare bones requirements to get a driver license (we have one of the toughest graduated licensing systems in the world but I still don't think its good enough, Australia has (from what I've seen) the toughest system)

[Bieber]

I don't think ambulance driver's are overrepresented; of course I also don't know that the data has ever been looked at. Anyone who drives emergently is probably a little more likely to be involved in an accident than the average person, but, even looked at proportionally, I wouldn't say that we account for a higher rate of accidents.

Um, not to be a dick, but dude, let me point out two things:

I don't think ambulance driver's are overrepresented

of course I also don't know that the data has ever been looked at

And then:

I wouldn't say that we account for a higher rate of accidents.

And again:

of course I also don't know that the data has ever been looked at

So, if you don't know the data, how in the world are you coming to the conclusion that EMS personnel are not over-represented or that we don't account for a higher rate of accidents? Just "because"?

http://www.emsworld....mbulance-safety

"Overall, EMS workers' on-the-job fatality rate is more than twice the national average, and nearly three-quarters of those deaths are transportation-related."

I wouldn't even say that the lack of emergent driver training or a cultural problem is the root cause, though those things definetly increase the likelihood of a wreck. You need to bear in mind that, even with recent increases in the requirements (at least where I live), it is very, very easy to get a drivers licence in the US. I can remember talking to a friend from the UK about that; he hated driving in the US and was shocked at how little went into get a driver's licence here compared to back home. If you're looking for a root cause, that's probably it.

So, the root cause is that it's not as difficult to get a driver's license in the U.S. than it is elsewhere.

How is it more difficult?

Are they expected to have more experience driving?

Do they have to take more driving classes?

Does that additional training they get include defensive driving?

People have to learn very little initially just to drive on a daily basis, and then combine that with the average lack of training in how to drive emergently...is it any surprise that ambulance get in wrecks?

It's no surprise that with a lack of training in emergency driving ambulances get into wrecks, but at the same time, the lack of emergent driver training isn't the root cause?

I wouldn't even say that the lack of emergent driver training or a cultural problem is the root cause, though those things definetly increase the likelihood of a wreck.

Uh, what?

Like I said, man, not trying to be a dick, but you're contradicting yourself and saying you don't know the data, but at the same time refute that data you've never looked at.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Bieber

[triemal04]

Um, not to be a dick, but dude, let me point out two things:

Sorry, to late for that. I'd say unbunch your panties, but I don't want to be a dick.

So, if you don't know the data, how in the world are you coming to the conclusion that EMS personnel are not over-represented or that we don't account for a higher rate of accidents? Just "because"?

You've heard of opinions, right? And how common they are? Without looking at any statistics, that would be mine. Is it right...guess not. Did someone wake up on the wrong side of bed today? I do appreciate the link to that article, though you probably should have quoted something that referenced the increased rate of accidents for ambulances, not something that was comparing on the job fatalities.

So, the root cause is that it's not as difficult to get a driver's license in the U.S. than it is elsewhere.

How is it more difficult?

Are they expected to have more experience driving?

Do they have to take more driving classes?

Does that additional training they get include defensive driving?

Yes. There is more to it than that, like I said initially, but yeah, if someone's level of skill when it comes to day to day driving is allready lacking, then tossing them behind the wheel of a large vehicle, expecting them to do things that regular drivers don't, and giving them minimal training in how to do so is a bad idea.

If there's someone from the UK they can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understood it, all of the above were required before the average person could get a licence.

It's no surprise that with a lack of training in emergency driving ambulances get into wrecks, but at the same time, the lack of emergent driver training isn't the root cause?

No. Like I said in my very first post in this thread, a lack of training is a large part of the problem, but if someone is a lousy driver to begin with, a quickie class isn't going to do a lot of good. Kind of like learning to crawl before you walk. If you are a shit driver, what's a 2 day course going to teach you?

Uh, what?

Like I said, man, not trying to be a dick, but you're contradicting yourself and saying you don't know the data, but at the same time refute that data you've never looked at.

Silly me, I didn't realize that I was trying to refute anything. I didn't actually know that any hard numbers had been looked at. What I said above that got you so huffy was my opinion, and a guess. And looks like I guessed wrong. Go figure, it's not like that's never happened before.

That does not change anything about why that rate is higher. Perhaps you'd like to share your opinion about why it's so. I mean, since we can all agree now that apparently people who drive ambulances are more likely to get into an accident, why do you think that happens?

[Bieber]

You've heard of opinions, right? And how common they are? Without looking at any statistics, that would be mine. Is it right...guess not. Did someone wake up on the wrong side of bed today? I do appreciate the link to that article, though you probably should have quoted something that referenced the increased rate of accidents for ambulances, not something that was comparing on the job fatalities.

I get that, I'm just trying to understand what you're basing your opinion on.

Yes. There is more to it than that, like I said initially, but yeah, if someone's level of skill when it comes to day to day driving is allready lacking, then tossing them behind the wheel of a large vehicle, expecting them to do things that regular drivers don't, and giving them minimal training in how to do so is a bad idea.

If there's someone from the UK they can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understood it, all of the above were required before the average person could get a licence.

I agree that taking someone without any training in emergent vehicle operations and putting them behind the wheel of an ambulance is a bad idea.

No. Like I said in my very first post in this thread, a lack of training is a large part of the problem, but if someone is a lousy driver to begin with, a quickie class isn't going to do a lot of good. Kind of like learning to crawl before you walk. If you are a shit driver, what's a 2 day course going to teach you?

I agree. I must have misunderstood something about what you said. If that's the case then I apologize.

That does not change anything about why that rate is higher. Perhaps you'd like to share your opinion about why it's so. I mean, since we can all agree now that apparently people who drive ambulances are more likely to get into an accident, why do you think that happens?

I know that the majority of accidents (clinical and operations) that occur in my system are mostly due to people rushing and not taking their time. Considering how little driving training we in EMS receive, in addition to a very much "we gotta go as fast as possible, it's an EMERGENCY!" mentality, I think it's a combination of insufficient training and too much emphasis on rushing to get from point A to point B. Ultimately, it's counterproductive. Like I said, slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

[triemal04]

I get that, I'm just trying to understand what you're basing your opinion on.

My personal experience and outlook on life with no hard data. Where most opinions come from... I do like that someone actually has compiled stats though, even if it made me wrong.

I agree that taking someone without any training in emergent vehicle operations and putting them behind the wheel of an ambulance is a bad idea.

Then we don't completely disagree. I just think that the problem has more to it than lack of training in emergent driving, and is more than just a culture problem within EMS (though yes, I agree that is also a problem.)

I agree. I must have misunderstood something about what you said. If that's the case then I apologize.

Meh. No big deal. I prefer a spirited conversation/arguement versus cautiously tiptoeing around something. It's always more fun in person...especially when alcohol is involved.

I know that the majority of accidents (clinical and operations) that occur in my system are mostly due to people rushing and not taking their time. Considering how little driving training we in EMS receive, in addition to a very much "we gotta go as fast as possible, it's an EMERGENCY!" mentality, I think it's a combination of insufficient training and too much emphasis on rushing to get from point A to point B. Ultimately, it's counterproductive. Like I said, slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

That would be the cultural problem that needs to be changed. Ohmygodohmygodit'sanemergency! Ifwedon'tgettothispersonandgetthemtothehospitalthey'llDIE! Ignoring how very rarely that is actually is the case. More training wouldn't really help that, but it might help people get out of a bad situation once they put themselves into one.

[Kiwiology]

How is it more difficult?

Are they expected to have more experience driving?

Do they have to take more driving classes?

Does that additional training they get include defensive driving?

Most states require a learners permit for six months and then a driving test to get your full, unrestricted license.

Some say if you are over 18 you do not require a learners permit and can go straight for a full license.

No state that I investigated ever had any logbook or verified driving requirement you could get your permit never drive and just wait six months nobody checked

Here to get a license you must have a learners license for six months, show 120 hours of supervised driving including 20 hours night driving, pass a 45 minute road test (failure rate is half) then you get your restricted license which you can drive on your own between 0500-2200 but not carry passengers; you must hold your restricted for at least 18 months (12 if you do a defensive driving course) then pass another road test then you get your full license

Australia is much tougher they have all sorts of vehicle power and passenger restrictions and an additional test which we do not have at the moment

Here if you have any points for anything you are automatically disqualified from not only the Ambulance Service but also the Paramedic Degree program. In Canada most of the Primary Care Paramedic programs require a clean class 4 license (class F in Ontario) and you need clean Class C1 in UK for the DipHE/FdSc Paramedic degrees as well.

You also need to have passed a defensive driving course before doing the ambulance driving course here too

[DFIB]

I run hot and I see a tight curve im not thinking of the physics and the prinicpals behind what is about to possible kill me.

Perfect reasoning for why companies shouldn't hire young drivers. In the movement of heavy equipment science is everything. Not thinking of the physics of moving objects will eventually be disastrous.

Have you told your partner riding in the back about your philosophy for driving?

On a different tangent,

Requirements for drivers in undisclosed location of the third world, 1. Be kin to someone that works EMS, 2. brush the ETOH stink off your breath before you show up for work, 3. Have a drivers license. I am sure there are some more official ones somewhere that are practically irrelevant.

Maby runswithneedles would like to work in that system.

I never let my driver run hot. There is only one that I trust and he loves the crew. He would never do anything to place us in danger. Which make me think, if you run hot with disregard to the science of driving, what does this say about your opinion of your partners? Is the patient more important than your crew? How do your partners respond to your disregard for their safety?

Mechanical experience does not equal maturity. Personality and ability without maturity are a dangerous combination.

Thinking institutionally obligates us to make risk assessments for everything, including driving. All evolved societies require and demand similar evolution of the institutions that serve them. Not everyone has been driving a truck since they were 16. In fact in large urban areas new medics may not even have the need to own their own car. Evolved systems gotta have rules.