Do you charge for SAR operations?

[Just Plain Ruff]

Should the organizers of search and rescue operations charge those rescued?

Should the organizers charge fees from rescued people if those people did not take reasonable precautions to make their rescue easier?

I ask this because I had a great conversation with someone from Montana on a airplane over the billing question.

He adamately said that those rescues should be free

I disagree'd especially if that person did not take reasonable precautions like bring a Cell phone, a signalling device or some other way to be found. There are certain recommendations to all hikers and explorers that are universal and I think if those reasonable precautions were not followed then they should foot at least part of their bill of the rescue.

For those who are separated from their equipment and signalling devices due to a fall or injury then they should not get billed.

I'm sure all the SAR members of this forum will have opinions so chime away.

Listen, we bill for ambulance transport, we bill for extrication and we bill sometimes for even no-servicing patients, why not bill for the rescues of future darwin award recipients?

[mrsbull]

Personally I am interested in working on my local SAR team. I spoke with some SAR members yesterday at work.

There was a hiker hiking up Pikes Peak (a 14er) made it close to the top (about a mile) the gal had someone go up to the summit because she was feeling ill (altitude) and we sent some EMTs down to find her. It took them over an hour to search for her. (I had the sups activate SAR) I TOLD them to activate it after 20 mins of no contact but..... They can always be canceled. They found her an hour later. It was over 2 hrs this lady who was ill before she was found. Should she have been (charged)?? No it was not her fault. She did not do anything stupid to my knowledge. She was responsible. Hiking with friends and in a public area. She was not able to be found right away as the friend who came up, got ems got lost showing them where she was. She was a bit disoriented as to location from a bit of altitude sickness.

SAR is all volunteers here. They WANT to do it. I also DO agree that SAR should charge some sort of a fee. An activation fee of some sort. Mostly to keep up equipment and radios etc up to par. Depending on resources and the like. However some folks can not pay. If not I think it should be OK. For folks who get themselves into trouble by doing something innocent such as a car accident or whatever they should not be "charged"

It is a yes and no for me. I am not thinking clearly enough right now. (pain meds for my ankle). Will post a better response later on.

Edited July 12, 2010 by mrsbull

[FireMedic65]

I agree that someone should be billed for rescue operations. This can be justified in a few ways. Mainly, fuel is not free. Supplies are not free. Rescuers need to mobilize with vehicles. Many of them respond in various types of vehicles; be it ATVs, pickup trucks, helicopters or airplanes. Fueling these is not cheap. Supplies that rescuers use are also not cheap. They need to be fed while our searching. Equipment used to keep themselves safe and from being lost themselves can cost quite a bit of money as well.

If these services for free, how would fuel and supplies be paid for? In fact, how would rescuers be paid? A free service is never actually free anyway. You will ultimately pay for it in taxes. If services such as SAR are offered free of charge, then taxes will thusly need to be raised so services can stay in service and mobilize.

[Chief1C]

I've been on dozens of rescue missions, and quite a few extended operation search missions. We don't charge for searches, but we do charge for rescues. Rope and Technical Rescue equipment, and rugged terrain vehicles take a lot of wear and tear on every single rescue. We cover tens of thousands of acres of park and game land, in a four county area. Not many folks are willing to be involved in such efforts, once they realize the scope of each operation.

SAR is a very expensive operation, nothing is cheap. We have very high standards, b/c so much can go wrong. What few courses exist to make people competent field team members and leaders, are the basic courses. Long, costly, and extensive, but very good classes. In the woods, only experience differs one from the next. PA has a budget issue, state parks around here can't afford to fund SAR efforts anymore. Very few grant opportunities exist, for SAR. No matter who sends personnel, state wide task forces, paid fire departments, volunteers, county groups, nobody is being compensated, no matter how long it takes. We provide for our own equipment usually, the pack I carry on searches cost me over $800. I bought all of my own gear, boots, clothing, helmet, etc.

The only fee, is for use of our ambulance's RTV (Rugged Terrain Vehicle), which has a device to hold a stokes, or extinguish wild fires. So, we charge the rescue and extrication fee from our service agreement, for use of that unit. But everything else is 'eaten cost', if we lose rope, or equipment, it's a loss, we can try to have insurance pay for it, but that's unlikely. If we get any of that billed fee either paid by the person, or reimbursed by insurance, it's used to offset costs of education and equipment, to improve our services. SAR is something you have to WANT to do, put your whole heart and body into it, and it's expensive as hell, but it's one of those things, where the only way to do it, is the right way, can't do it halfhearted.

Helicopters are our biggest issue. We've asked the PA National Guard to do Lift-Outs. They won't. They ask first, who's going to pay? We can't, the parks or game commission can't, they're broke; the county's are broke. Medical helicopters can't lift around here, but they're always glad to offer their search lights, at no charge.. or their Infrared, state police too. But again, neither can lift out.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I'm not talking about charging the poor schlep who takes all the precautions and finds themselvess in need of rescue. I'm talking about the person or persons who think they are above the requirements or recommendations given to them by the park service and they disregard those said recommendations. Then they get hurt and the SAR members have to go find them. Those are the ones I'm talking about.

Same with the water rescues when someone's boat flounders and they don't have the survival gear or equipment to help themselves. They should also be charged.

Thsi guy and I on the plane did not part as friends, he was vehemently attacking my stance on making people pay. He seemed like a nice guy but I think that his priorities were misplaced. He seemed to me to have the hero attitude not the helping attitude.

[Chief1C]

Oh, the folks that do stupid stuff and get hurt, they get fined. People who fall off water falls, or amateur ice climbers - those operations can take in upward of 15 hours, people who disregard signs and walk difficult or extreme trails in sandals or sneakers... They all get fined. But someone who is prepared, doing it right, and just has an accident.. They get billed if we can use the RTV. We don't always have to, there's a tire that mounts to the stokes called the Anderson Wheel, it makes carry-outs so much easier, but it can't always be used on the "difficult" trails. Simply, if it's your fault, and could have been prevented, the rangers on the command end will probably issue a fine. We don't see any of that, but it does go into the SAR fund for that district. It also provides funding for education of the public.

The last ice climbing accident, where it wasn't a professional climber, it took nearly 18 hours. You're walking in, on ice, you're walking out.. on ice. This is the one where the National Guard refused to help. They weren't prepared for being in the wilderness, or climbing vertical, rugged ice. People got hurt, our people, crampons can only do so much on perfectly forms, lumps of ice. Hundreds of feet of ropes, dozens of haul systems, dozens of people from agencies all over the state were involved. People were mad that we were charging them, criminally, they ignored posted legal signs, charged with huge fines. Sometimes, that's the only way to "educate" others from making the same mistakes.

[Eydawn]

ABSOLUTELY NOT. No way, no how. *Except* in cases of willful gross negligence, or "faked" disappearances. Then those people should not only be billed, but sent to jail. Case in point: Someone in Boulder County faked getting lost in the wilderness to cover up an AWOL. They found him a few years later and sent him to jail... lots of wasted time, risks taken, and resources drained on that one.

Most SAR teams are non-profit, volunteer agencies overseen by their local sheriff. Volunteers are NOT PAID- not even pay-by-call. Your tax dollars, at least in the case of Colorado SAR, are *not* going to fund SAR operations. Many SAR teams do fundraising to get donations to fund training and equipment, and many of the SAR members invest their own time and finances to make the team function. My team pays yearly membership fees, and all members are expected to provide the bulk of their personal equipment- climbing harness, response pack, etc. Those who go into SAR do so realizing that they will not be compensated financially. Compensation comes in the form of opportunities to attend classes and conferences at low or reduced cost, increased knowledge about wilderness survival and safety, the ability to enjoy being outside while also being useful, and the camaraderie of a team of similarly minded professional individuals.

Problems with billing for SAR response: People are *afraid* of a bill, and thus wait LONGER to call for help. Even people with cell phones, which in the backcountry are a spotty safety device at best. Waiting longer to call for help means the person is exposed to the elements longer, thus meaning they will probably be in worse shape when they are eventually located, and therefore unable to assist with their own extrication/rescue. This means that even more SAR resources are needed to evacuate them- you can have 4 people on a search team walk out someone in good shape, you need at least 30 to carry someone out. The longer someone is out, the more difficult it becomes to find them and the worse shape they are in, especially if they are injured. We much prefer the hyper-reactive hunter's wife who calls crying because he's an hour overdue to the person who waits three days for their friend to come home and THEN decides to call. Outcomes are generally better with faster response.

The longer they are out without being found, the more likely they are to try to "self-rescue" (aka: WANDER AROUND) and the more difficult it becomes to find them. Footprints age more. Scent trails become colder. This makes the job of the trackers and dog teams much more difficult. Lost people will often enter much more difficult terrain in an attempt to get to a "high point" so they can look around to figure out where they are, the longer that they are out. This increases the risk of significant injury from a fall or similar, and puts the SAR responders at MUCH GREATER RISK than they would have been had the person (or their family in some cases) sought help earlier. Those of us who are active in the SAR community, especially teams who are members of NASAR, are firmly against billing for these reasons listed above. See this website for more information on NASAR: http://www.nasar.org/nasar/

Everyone should get one freebie "stupid." Even the best trained people in the world sometimes make poor decisions when they go out into the backcountry. If someone is a repeat stupid, then the possibility of billing them could be raised, but only if it is shown to be a repeat behavior. Most people learn from their mistakes. Also, sometimes the luck runs out and people get caught short. Case in point: I have been trained by the Dive Rescue team out here to be safe in the river. Guess what happened to me two weeks ago? I got sucked into a current, tossed off my inner tube and caught in swiftwater, pinned underwater against some branches. I had to break branches to get free, and nearly drowned. If Dive Rescue had been called to fish me (more likely my body) out, should they have billed my husband? Everyone, at some point, will have a situation that could have necessitated response from SAR or in my case, Dive Rescue.

The problem with the idea of billing for people who did not take "reasonable" precautions is that "reasonable" varies depending on the individual in question, the situation, and even the hour at which the person is found. If the weather forecast was for hot glorious sunshine and the person chose to pack extra water instead of clothing layers, but then a freak storm cropped up and soaked them to the bone and they were suffering from hypothermia and unable to self-extricate, do we bill them for not being psychic? At the time they set out, they checked the forecast, took equipment they deemed reasonably necessary, and the conditions changed...

Some people free-climb. Do we charge them for falling, when they are expert climbers who happened to not make the handhold they've gripped so many times before? Do we charge them for choosing to climb without safety gear? What about the moron who goes to REI and picks up a harness and pitons and uses them incorrectly and falls on the same wall- do we not charge them, simply because they had the gear and didn't know how to use it or had a gear failure? Or do we charge them for using their safety gear inappropriately? See where I am going with this? Someone could easily raise a ruckus that they were billed unfairly when X guy got away without a bill... which is why it's easier to simply NOT BILL unless it is very obvious, extreme negligence. Balloon boy: false reporting. Negligence. Got billed by the county as well as a variety of agencies.

There is a reason that public education is such a huge part of what we do in SAR. We go out to outdoors groups, schools, Boy Scout and Girl Scout functions, pretty much anywhere that will give us a chunk of time. We make outdoor safety education a priority, but we can't reach everyone. Should we hold someone responsible for never having been given an education on the outdoors? Sometimes you get people who come out on vacation and know their own territory well as far as preparing to go out, but there's factors they aren't even aware of in territory they're not familiar with. Should we bill people for venturing into new territory and learning the hard way that they didn't prepare properly? There's only so much that proper preparedness can do. Hate to say it.

Many people who go into the backcountry frequently here in Colorado will buy an "insurance" card that donates directly to SAR at the state level- these funds are then distributed among the teams. Also, to my understanding, a portion of hunting and fishing licenses is also similarly apportioned to SAR. So it's not like SAR is operating wholly on the backs of the responders... and many people who are rescued become huge SAR advocates and go out and get donations to be given to the team as a thank-you. I would much rather operate on this system than to start billing for response and increase the amount of risk to myself and my teammates. We expose ourselves to the same dangers that the subject has been exposed to- and often face additional risks as well. I'm all for minimizing risk.

I'm also for finding live, healthy people. It's really distressing to everyone, from the search dog up to the incident commander, to go out on a rescue or a search that turns wonky. Finding dead kids is the worst. Having a fallen climber die in your basket on the way down is about second worst. The sooner we are tapped to respond, the better odds our subjects have, and the likelihood of SAR being exposed to these traumatic incidents is decreased.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

These statements regarding rationale for non-billing and increased risk to responders are representative of the official operating policy of my Search and Rescue Team. The phrasing and emphasis are mine only, and are not to be construed as a direct statement from any SAR team I may be affiliated with.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Not picking a fight with you Wendy nor am I wanting to.

By your rationale that everyone gets one freebie stupid, then why do ambulances and fire departments charge for the one freebie stupid?

I think that someone who I delineated out in my above thoughts should at least have to foot some of the bill. It's really only fair if you ask me.

I know that one rescue I read about cost over 100K for the helicpoter alone. (not completely sure if that figure was right) but why not bill someone for services rendered. Yes it's not cheap, yes the SAR people say to not charge but seriously, this mentality of doing it for free as a volunteer has to stop.

Even if I take all reasonable precautions and hurt myself while biking or driving and need an ambulance and hospital care, why shouldn't I be prepared to foot part of the bill?

Please do not think I'm trying to cause a ripple and tell any of the SAR groups what to do as I really appreciate that you are out there but seriously, shouldn't someone who requires services be at least charged for some of those services?

[FireMedic65]

Although I throughly enjoy doing what I do.. but I am not a charity. I expect to be paid for my services. If I am out saving your ass for 15hrs because you are a dumbass.. I expect payment for time and effort. If you get hurt from a twisted ankle while hiking and I have to come fetch you out.. I expect to be paid for my time. I am not a rich person nor do I expect to become rich. This however is my job. I need to be paid so I can have a roof over my head and food in my belly. Also, like others have said, cost of using equipment is expensive and stuff gets worn out. Once you use a rope for a rescue, it can no longer be used for rescue again. Who is going to pay for replacement rope? Should the service pay for it? No! If they did, they would go broke and then no longer have any equipment and then no one to come rescue anyone.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Although I throughly enjoy doing what I do.. but I am not a charity. I expect to be paid for my services. If I am out saving your ass for 15hrs because you are a dumbass.. I expect payment for time and effort. If you get hurt from a twisted ankle while hiking and I have to come fetch you out.. I expect to be paid for my time. I am not a rich person nor do I expect to become rich. This however is my job. I need to be paid so I can have a roof over my head and food in my belly. Also, like others have said, cost of using equipment is expensive and stuff gets worn out. Once you use a rope for a rescue, it can no longer be used for rescue again. Who is going to pay for replacement rope? Should the service pay for it? No! If they did, they would go broke and then no longer have any equipment and then no one to come rescue anyone.

I'm leaning more towards billing everyone who requires rescue at least something.

Why does every other industry in America charge for services rendered but EMS/Fire does not?

If you honestly cannot pay like many in america then that can be taken into account but you should expect to be billed for services.