Arizona Immigration Law

[HERBIE1]

Why did you deserve to be pulled over, just because you were driving in area that your race is not popular in ? Yes, you might have been up to trouble, but if they did not see you committing a crime, there is no legitimate reason to pull you over. But I am glad you got a taste of our life.

Like I said- I had no problem being pulled over. If an area is 99.9% black, then a white guy driving around there is clearly out of place. Whether or not he is doing something wrong remains to be seen, and can quickly be determined.

I had a license, had proof of insurance, was not DUI, my car was legally registered to me, I broke no traffic laws, I had no broken taillights, had no outstanding warrants or criminal history, and I was not behaving suspiciously- I was doing nothing wrong. I was questioned, I provided satisfactory answers to those questions, and I went on my way.

Let's say I was a clueless tourist, who happened to end up in the middle of the ghetto.

I would be very happy if an officer pulled me over because I was wandering aimlessly in a dangerous area.

Happened more than a few times when I worked out there- a major highway ran through the area and we would see folks obviously lost. They missed an exit, thought they could simply get off and get back on the highway, but became lost. They had no idea they were in a very bad area. We even escorted a couple folks back onto the highway- especially in the middle of the night. They were quite grateful for the help.

I recall about 20 years ago when my sister- who was around 21 at the time, was pulled over by cops in front of a well known housing project in the area. She had no idea where she was, this was long before everyone had cell phones, had taken the wrong turn and could not find the highway. The cops explained where she was and she began to cry. They calmed her down and escorted her back to the highway. She even called the station and thanked the officers when she got home.

[Cwarren]

We have all heard by now the hullaballoo over the Arizona law that has gotten everyone to stand on one side of the fence or the other.

We have administration officials who have admittedly not read the bill (I'm sure they've read it now) - Eric holder and Janet Napolitano admitted in front of congressional committee hearings that they had not read the bill. A senior State department official also admitted on national television that he had not read it. All three are calling it unconstitutional.

So I have three questions.

1. Have you read the 12 pages of the law?

2. Where do you stand on the whole controversy? Do you stand with Arizona or do you stand with those against Arizona?

3. Do you think this was a good law to pass, a bad law to pass or a misguided law?

Please keep this civil.

I haven't had the chance to read the bill so I can't say anything to that. But, what gets me is that THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY! Why should we allow some people to break the law and yet Require all Americans to follow them. Are we advocating a lawless society?

[HERBIE1]

I heard a possible explanation for the intensive fury of those fighting this law. Someone pointed out that the bill provides jail time for not only people who are coyotes(human smugglers), but includes family members who harbor/enable the illegals. Makes sense. The illegals cannot do this on their own- they need help, and if the families are part of the problem, this law makes it risky for them to abet the criminals.

No wonder they are scared to death.

[Richard B the EMT]

why is driving legally in an area that your race is not the majority, a reason to pull you over ?

I mentioned this episode in a string on weirdest things heard over the radio: NYPD Division radio called the precinct anti-crime car (an unmarked police vehicle), to ask them to check out neighborhood calls to 9-1-1, for a suspicious car in the vicinity of a predominantly black and Hispanic housing project, "dark blue Crown Vic, full tinted windows, with 4 white guys in it".

After a few seconds, the Anti-Crime unit came back on the air: "Central, be advised, the vehicle is identified. It's US!"

At least we know, even in that rough neighborhood, the area "Watch" sometimes works.

[DwayneEMTP]

Let me ask you this.

If racial profiling is such a BAD problem let me ask this...

They stopped 46000 whites 26000 blacks and the rest were other races.

The arrest numbers were 4500 whites and about 2000 blacks.

Those numbers to me don't suggest racial profiling

The numbers for Raymore were even more disparate

10000 stops ( can't remember exact figures)

7200 whites with 800 or so arrests

2000 blacks with 50 or so arrests

I can't see the racial profiling.

C'mon Ruffers, you have to know that these numbers mean nothing without knowing the percentage of black people in these environments. I agree, if the percentage of blacks/whites is 50/50 then there is certainly no profiling going on here, but if the percentage is 90/10 then yeah, the black folks should be screaming their heads off..and I'll stand with them as they do it. You know better than this brother, you can figure this shit out...lets not spew statistics that seem to make your point but we all know don't actually do so.

[DwayneEMTP]

Like I said- I had no problem being pulled over. If an area is 99.9% black, then a white guy driving around there is clearly out of place. Whether or not he is doing something wrong remains to be seen, and can quickly be determined... I had a license, had proof of insurance, was not DUI, my car was legally registered to me, I broke no traffic laws, I had no broken taillights, had no outstanding warrants or criminal history, and I was not behaving suspiciously- I was doing nothing wrong. I was questioned, I provided satisfactory answers to those questions, and I went on my way...

I recall about 20 years ago when my sister- who was around 21 at the time, was pulled over by cops in front of a well known housing project in the area. She had no idea where she was, this was long before everyone had cell phones, had taken the wrong turn and could not find the highway. The cops explained where she was and she began to cry. They calmed her down and escorted her back to the highway. She even called the station and thanked the officers when she got home.

As a big fan of your posts, intelligence and logic, I have to say I'm disappointed by this one. This isn't about whether you were right or wrong, it's about our civil liberties and the right in our country not to be detained without probable cause. If the officer was there to help your sister, Kudos to him, helping her would not involve a drivers license, insurance card, nor running her plates to see if she had priors. It would simply involve asking what her need was, and then helping to fulfill it, though I'm guessing that that is not the only thing that occurred.

We have a right, and an obligation, in my opinion, to ensure that our police forces do not become an armed extension of the government. We have an obligation to ensure that law enforcement is fair, equal, just, and unbiased. I will not be punished for visiting my friend in the inner city, and if we have to let some folks get past that are buying weed instead of actually visiting anyone, well, in my world, that is a small price to pay for our liberties. The same liberties that are being whittled away at year by year.

Case in point. http://video.google....2117793977759#

I can't remember the last time I broke a law other than speeding, but I'll tell you this. If I get stopped, the officer, whom I respect greatly en-masse, and less so sometimes on an individual basis, will need to explain to me why I was detained before I provide any type of documentation.

Each time we say something to the effect of, "take away my rights and liberties as long as it will help you catch some bad guys." we choose to pee on our flag, we degrade our constitution, and we sacrifice some, perhaps a lot, of what it means to be American.

No disrespect meant to your opinion brother. I've only meant to offer my passionate, and contrary point of view.

Dwayne

Edited again for formatting, no contextual changes made.

Edited June 11, 2010 by DwayneEMTP

[Just Plain Ruff]

C'mon Ruffers, you have to know that these numbers mean nothing without knowing the percentage of black people in these environments. I agree, if the percentage of blacks/whites is 50/50 then there is certainly no profiling going on here, but if the percentage is 90/10 then yeah, the black folks should be screaming their heads off..and I'll stand with them as they do it. You know better than this brother, you can figure this shit out...lets not spew statistics that seem to make your point but we all know don't actually do so.

Dammit Dwayne, do you have to attack every one of my recent posts? You know, you aren't always right but you sure think you are.

I was just citing the statistics that I read from the State Highway patrol. I do not know the percentage of whites versus blacks, nor do I know the percentage of wiccans versus Pagans in that community. But I'll make sure to get those types of statistics even if the source I'm citing doesn't have that information posted.

I was simply citing the statistics that came from the website.

I guess from now on just to appease you I will make sure that I get all the statistics, no matter how mundane or not applicable to any fricking thing that has to do with it just to appease you.

I just can't win with you can I?

Let's just agree to disagree and go our separate ways,

Edited June 11, 2010 by Ruffems

[DwayneEMTP]

Dammit Dwayne, do you have to attack every one of my recent posts? You know, you aren't always right but you sure think you are.

When did you become such a crybaby??

I most often believe that I am wrong, or at least partially wrong, but am not sure how to discuss things from that perspective. I argue from the point of view of being right until one of my betters shows me the errors of my thinking, logic, etc.

I was just citing the statistics that I read from the State Highway patrol...

That's the problem, next time think about the information instead of posting irrelevant shit and pretending that it supports your argument. Don't blame the SHP for the fact that you failed to think through the information you posted.

I do not know the percentage of whites versus blacks, nor do I know the percentage of wiccans versus Pagans in that community. But I'll make sure to get those types of statistics even if the source I'm citing doesn't have that information posted.

I might expect such nonsense from a new poster, but you? Pretty surprising. Trying to muddy the waters with the Wiccans/Pegans bullshit isn't going to fly brother. There are few here foolish enough to consider that a valid argument.

I guess from now on just to appease you I will make sure that I get all the statistics, no matter how mundane or not applicable to any fricking thing that has to do with it just to appease you.

Easily the most idiotic thing I've seen posted on the forums in a long time. The make-up of the population that the statistics are drawn from are vital if you are going to attempt to show that there is no profiling occurring, or as it appears you attempted to show, reverse profiling. I made the comment that I believed that you are plenty smart to get that, though unfortunately your comment above shows that I was mistaken.

I just can't win with you can I?

Of course you can, as can anyone else that debates on this forum. Simply don't try and present bullshit as a valid argument. See? Easy.

Let's just agree to disagree and go our separate ways,

I'm not sure how we do that exactly? I'm not going to stop commenting on posts that catch my attention and that I find interesting. Unless you are suggesting that you are no longer going to post then I suggest we simply continue to debate until we come to a better solution.

Dwayne

[Just Plain Ruff]

When did you become such a crybaby??

I only respond that way when I think someone is unduly going after my posts. You ripped my post on my religious beliefs when I tried to explain my beliefs but I did not respond in kind when you could not explain your beliefs.

I most often believe that I am wrong, or at least partially wrong, but am not sure how to discuss things from that perspective. I argue from the point of view of being right until one of my betters shows me the errors of my thinking, logic, etc.

But thats just it, your viewpoint often comes off as I'm right and you are wrong. That's my opinion maybe no anyone elses here but I have had discussions from others saying the same thing.

That's the problem, next time think about the information instead of posting irrelevant shit and pretending that it supports your argument. Don't blame the SHP for the fact that you failed to think through the information you posted.

I'm sorry that the information I had was not to the Dwayne standard. I posted what information I had on that site. Next time I will "think" it through and do more research. I do not think that it did not support the argument. I simply put what the site had on it. Did I ever once say that there was no racial profiling in the two areas? If I did then I will stand corrected and make a public apology to everyone on this site but I will specifically bow down to YOU and make sure the world knows I was wrong.

I might expect such nonsense from a new poster, but you? Pretty surprising. Trying to muddy the waters with the Wiccans/Pegans bullshit isn't going to fly brother. There are few here foolish enough to consider that a valid argument.

I was not trying to muddy the waters, I was simply responding to your requirement of haviing all the facts. You didn't see where I was trying to go with it but let's take out that argument because neither of us got the point.

Easily the most idiotic thing I've seen posted on the forums in a long time. The make-up of the population that the statistics are drawn from are vital if you are going to attempt to show that there is no profiling occurring, or as it appears you attempted to show, reverse profiling. I made the comment that I believed that you are plenty smart to get that, though unfortunately your comment above shows that I was mistaken.

But Dwayne, that's just it, if the Highway Patrol didn't think that it was important to include I didn't either. Again, I said that this was taken from the Highway Patrol site but just to make you happy, I think that the population of Kansas city is around 40% black and the population of Raymore MO is around 8 percent. I'm just guessing because guess what, the Highway patrol didn't have the populations diversity listed in it's report. So I can't give you that information other than what I kind of remember hearing one night on the news.

My understanding of the statistics I quoted and the website taken from was simply to show the number of car stops and arrests and the racial numbers. I don't think it was to show that racial profiling was happening which I believe that it does, it was to show the numbers of car stops in each community. Don't you think that had the information been presented to me in the site, I would have posted it? you probably don't but I would have.

Of course you can, as can anyone else that debates on this forum. Simply don't try and present bullshit as a valid argument. See? Easy.

I do not believe that what I posted was bullshit. That's your opinion. You have set the bar pretty high from here on out. You are now expecting that everyone think through whatever they post for things they might not understand or realize they are leaving out. Then they are to research for that information and then post it. That's a pretty tall order if you ask me just to pass your bullshit test.

You should also follow your requirements to the letter because your requirements of everyone here who posts also apply to you

And I expect that you point out the fallacy of everyone else's arguments also. To me it seems that I've borne the brunt of your criticism more than most on this forum over the past year but that might just be my perception.

.

I'm not sure how we do that exactly? I'm not going to stop commenting on posts that catch my attention and that I find interesting. Unless you are suggesting that you are no longer going to post then I suggest we simply continue to debate until we come to a better solution.

Dwayne

Michael

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ok, I went back to the main highway patrol website. The original post that i referenced did not in the diagrams reference race breakdown for Raymore

I found the actual pdf file and it does indeed show the racial breakdown of the town.

As soon as I get back from my son's rocket launch or sometime later today, I will post the information based on the Dwayne standard "no disparagement intended Dwayne"

Dwayne, even though I disagree with the way you pointed out for all of us. I can say that the racial stops seem to be in line, at least in Raymore as to the racial population

Here is Raymore's Highway patrol stop numbers in a attachment.

And no, it doesn't say anything about pagans or wiccans but if I can find that breakdown I will.