Forgotten equipment

[HERBIE1]

You should not be a preceptor. Sure students should not get lost or disappear but you should be the responsible one. You would not leave a patient behind that was 'taking their time.' Students should be expected to be on best behavior and to keep up, but things happen. As bad as it looks for a student to disappear from the EMS crew, it looks just as bad if not worse for your crew and agency when you leave students behind, ya know, the ones you are supposed to be helping and guiding...

Leave precepting students for the professionals, you should not be handling the learning situation.

The professionals? I have news for you-we're all supposed to be professionals.

Last time I checked, people in this business- even students- are supposed to be adults. You are supposed to be a preceptor, not a babysitter and if a student has difficulty paying attention to where his preceptor and his/her partner are, that's not a good sign. If they aren't responsible enough to simply pay attention to what's going on, much less the patient care aspect of the job, I suggest they might be in the wrong career. A preceptor's job is to teach, monitor, mentor, and be a resource for their student,

How attentive is a student if they can't even keep track of their preceptor? They should be watching every move made, monitoring a patient, grabbing patient belongings, helping carry equipment or the patient- whatever needs to be done. A student should not be disappearing. I can promise you this- if you as a student are left behind, it will never happen again. Of course things happen, but we aren't talking about leaving a 2 year old child, this is supposed to be an adult. I agree a student shouldn't be left at a residence but if they are left on a scene or at an ER?... BFD They shouldn't be wandering around aimlessly.

They are supposed to be students, there to learn by observing and by doing- they are NOT helpless infants.

[Mateo_1387]

The professionals? I have news for you-we're all supposed to be professionals.

Where did I say it should be otherwise? This is nothing new.

Last time I checked, people in this business- even students- are supposed to be adults. You are supposed to be a preceptor, not a babysitter and if a student has difficulty paying attention to where his preceptor and his/her partner are, that's not a good sign. If they aren't responsible enough to simply pay attention to what's going on, much less the patient care aspect of the job, I suggest they might be in the wrong career. A preceptor's job is to teach, monitor, mentor, and be a resource for their student,

But in fact, you are in essence a babysitter. You have to baby-sit the student to make sure they do not screw up. It is added responsibility on your part as a preceptor. You have to make sure your students to not get into dangerous situations, do not get you or your partner or your ambulance into dangerous situations, and make sure they do not perform poor medical skills that could harm your patients. I think you are a babysitter when you are a preceptor.

Students should have high standards. I agree with that. But they are students and a lot of times new to the EMS environment, mentalities, and scenes. Many times, students must take in and assimilate a vast amount of information. The students are constantly having to adapt to new people and situations. Do not expect them to be perfect.

When your agency agrees to have students within their system there can be many benefits. Leaving students behind on scenes just puts a sour taste into your agency's mouth, the student's mouth, and the College/University's mouth.

For starters, your agency may be allowing students from a certain college to participate in your EMS system to promote EMS standards, to provide a good learning environment, and to view potential employees. Leaving a student behind on a scene while they are in a learning phase may deplete your system of a soon-to-be awesome paramedics. You screw up for your system, and the student.

At the college level, your actions may cause tension between the agency in question and the college. The college may not with to send students to your agency to ride because your agency is not responsible with students. This could be a potential hurt for your agency as well as the college.

Lets not forget the student who is left behind at a scene. Many times, the student may be required to leave their cell phones at home while at clinical. They may be hours away from being 'picked up' by friends or family. This puts the student in a very difficult situation when they are alone in a neighborhood that may not be safe.

Leaving students behind just because they are an 'adult' is bogus. Would you leave a 16-year-old rider behind just because they got lost? A 16 year old can be expected to be able to pay attention and be at the right places at the right time. But there is the potential that they are separated from the EMS crew, are you going to leave them behind? Same expectations? Why one and not the other?

How attentive is a student if they can't even keep track of their preceptor? They should be watching every move made, monitoring a patient, grabbing patient belongings, helping carry equipment or the patient- whatever needs to be done. A student should not be disappearing. I can promise you this- if you as a student are left behind, it will never happen again. Of course things happen, but we aren't talking about leaving a 2 year old child, this is supposed to be an adult. I agree a student shouldn't be left at a residence but if they are left on a scene or at an ER?... BFD They shouldn't be wandering around aimlessly.

So, whatever needs to be done? You send them down the elevator to go get a piece of equipment you desperately need. While the student is retrieving your equipment you decide you must leave the scene because the patient needs to be transported to the hospital. So while you go down the elevator the student is coming up another elevator. The student gets lost, they are not used to the building. They cannot find you. Are you just going to leave them because they 'could not keep up'? I doubt it.

What is BFD?

[rat115]

i dont really leave equipment much, although a few times i thought we had left equipment and its the worst feeling enroute to a call were you will need the equipment you think you left. thankfully we usually have a backup if we have left something behind. I have left students behind which is why the first order of business when students get in unit is this set of rules:

1. you will be less than 5 feet of me or my partner.

2. you will keep up with us or we will leave you behind.

3. you will not do everything right, but you will learn.

4. you will have as much fun as possible.

I don't agree with leaving a student behind. I do believe that the rest of what you said here in numbers 1-4 is good. If you've got a student that's more than 5 feet away from you 1) he/she is not learning anything, 2) the preceptor can't make sure that what the student is doing is correct and 3) that the student is not within close reach of the preceptor is something that should be taken up with the instructor either by email, phone or through the evaluation forms that the student has. If the student is causing problems, there's always the option of making a trip back by the base area to drop the student off early or having a supervisor pickup the student from the ER. In my opinion, the only reason to leave a student behind is if it DEFINATELY means life or death for the patient.

On the other side of the coin, I've had preceptors who expected me to be able to figure out what was going on without being communicated to. I've been with crews that had been working together for so long that they didn't have to talk but a couple of words here and there about what they were doing on scene and then they expected me as a student and someone who didn't know their team to blend in without any changes on their part. They were excellent EMT and EMT/Paramedic teams, but they made horrible preceptors because of their lack of communication on scenes.

Edited April 15, 2009 by rat115

[azemtjunkie79]

Seems to me the one we forget the most is the pulse ox thing is always missing either at the er or on scene

[Mateo_1387]

In my opinion, the only reason to leave a student behind is if it DEFINATELY means life or death for the patient.

I disagree. Leave student behind where your patient was shot in a ghetto. Makes good sense eh? Crew before patient, and that includes student, because we have a duty to go home safe.

[rat115]

I disagree. Leave student behind where your patient was shot in a ghetto. Makes good sense eh? Crew before patient, and that includes student, because we have a duty to go home safe.

Is it going to take more than saying hey get over here? Is the pt going to die while your partern is looking for the student? THAT"S what I mean. If you got a GSW in the ghetto, your student isn't very smart to take off.

Yes, we're supposed to bring everyone back. That's why I said that it would only be acceptable if it "DEFINATELY" would make the difference between life and death. Most of us in the field realize that the time to yell for someone to get over to the ambulance isn't going to make that kind of difference.

[Richard B the EMT]

What is BFD?

I'll presume it's shorthand for "Big Freaking Deal" (cleaned Up version), but I could be incorrect.

[Schwaa]

I've only left one thing on scene. The glucometer. It was 4:30am and we had an unresponsive pt. My medic and the ambulance crew took off to the ER. It was my job to wrap up all the gear that was left on scene and meet my medic and the ambulance at the ER. I had thought I had picked up everything. The pts husband rode in with the ambulance and locked the doors behind him. I took my time, drove to the ER 5 miles away. I had walked in just as the husband was being let in to see the pt. He gets my attention and says something along the lines of "I found a little black thing, I dont know what it is but I thought it might be important. I left it on my counter..." . It was an easy fix though. He gave us his house key and we went back and got it. He just told us to leave his key under his mat Lesson learned.

[AnthonyM83]

I read your explanation, but it does not seem like any justification to leave a student.

As others said, EMS is a different environment and mindset. The purpose of the ride-alongs is to get them used to it. Even if you give your 4 rules clearly and they are good, responsible students, they might not be able to keep to them due to inexperience.

On my first ride-along, we had an accident on the freeway. The medic told me, "When we get down, you're going tot ride my ass (ha)...stay right next tome". When we actually got out, there were half a dozen patients, active bleeding, cops and FD running around, another medic asked me to give one of the cops an extra pair of gloves b/c he had blood all over them. By the time, he had finished his instructions to me, I had lost my preceptor in the crowd.

Yet, I know I'm a good student. I know I can take directions well. I know I can be obedient when learning. And while I had been on MVA's before on previous jobs, I never had to deal with all the shuffling around, student mindset, trying to figure out what's going on, trying to recall stuff from school. What if they had gotten their patients loaded up first and had taken off?

You're supposed to be there to teach them those lessons. Later on, if they feel like goofing off, MAYBE you can leave them if endangering patient. But you look after your crew (and guests). You're taking partial responsibility for them. Definitely, unprofessional to leave them, purposefully.

[HERBIE1]

I didn't think I would need to spell this out, but I will. I would NEVER put a student in harm's way. I've had a student or 2 who seemed to prefer to hit on nurses in ER's vs pay attention to writing a report, cleaning, or restocking. I've had a student or 2 who simply disappeared with no explanation. I've actually instructed my partner to pull down the street from an ER and then walk back to see how long it took the student to realize what had happened. In each case, there was never a second offense. I've had dozens of students over the years and my system works for me. I've worked with many of them as partners and nearly every one has turned out to be fine medics.

If all hell breaks loose and we need to get back into service ASAP, if I need to spend time finding my student, I will NOT be happy.

The student is there to learn and if they aren't paying attention or are not around, then they are NOT learning. You never know when a teaching moment happens and it can't happen if you need a GPS locator on your student.

When I was a student I kept my eyes open, my mouth shut, and stuck to my preceptor like glue. That was my job. It's not a difficult concept. It seems that many students these days think they have all the answers right out of school. I tell every one of them I am always willing to listen to alternate possibilities- when appropriate- you can learn something from anyone. I also say that there are times that you simply need to listen and we'll talk about it later.