When are we going to wake up as a profession?

[veryamusing]

In light of already feeling like fool for opening my big mouth about something I don’t fully understand. :oops:

I am going to make one more post and hope I don’t stick my foot in my mouth this time.

One thought I do have about making EMT-B a one year college degree is how many people would not become EMT-Bs? I am sure that yes some of the people should not be EMTs at all but I am sure you all know some that have made some great EMTs. With the thought of changing the standards how soon would you have a shortage of EMT-Bs?

Maybe the best thought is to do it as a one year degree, but have an internship after six months either in ER or on an ambulance.

And maybe some of the non-medical classes such as Math and English could be online so people that want to be EMT-Bs but still have to work another job to pay for it.

What type of classes would you think an EMT-B would need other than the basic medical ones?

• A&P

• Math

• English

• Understanding a Map (this one is my idea)

• Any others?

If EMT-B is going to be a college would it be a good idea to let them do IVs (just little stuff like if they are dehydrated they can give them the fluids and stuff like that?

Ok I will shut up now unless you think I am being helpful. Please let me know if this is being helpful or just a waste of forum space. :?:

SirAndrew, I don't know why you feel foolish for posting, but you shouldn't. Asking questions is how we all learn; if you don't understand something or wish to understand it better then please just ask! You are being helpful and are not wasting forum space (hint: it's not finite).

I don't think EMT-Bs should be doing IVs--that should be left to EMT-Ps (we don't have EMT-Is in Florida). The EMT-B program at my community college was eleven credit hours, just shy of the twelve required to be considered a full-time student. This may not mean much on the surface, but why is the college so reluctant to validate the profession by making it a legit course of study? Not even my professors could answer that.

But with respect to what courses in addition to the basic EMT stuff one should know is like you said, college-level mathematics like algebra, English composition, definitely medical terminology, A&P, and perhaps even sciences like biology, chemistry, physics, etc. Humanities, speech and computer classes? Eh, not so much. I think we can all agree that many EMTs we've come in contact with would balk at these requirements and may not have entered the profession at all had this been the bar height. (I modeled my suggestion after the RN curriculum at both the Associate's and Bachelor's levels.) But if we're ever going to garner any respect (as was said above), and shake the "ambulance driver" mentality, we need to implement stringent education requirements.

Lastly, if we want this movement to get roots, we should do it ourselves first. How many here have met these requirements so far? I had already taken many of these courses before I enrolled in the EMT program, but many of my classmates had not and had no intention of furthering themselves beyond the most basic requirements. Let's lead by example.

[air.stump]

The college levels courses are good starts but another thing that needs to be addressed is the continuing education requirements. More than once, I have from partners and other medics that the CE classes are boring and redundant. For NREMTP you take a refresher that is 48 hours and then another 24 additional hours to get the hours required.

I have always taken the extra step and mixed up the courses I have chosen. I have even went to other places to hear a different spin on the same refresher topics. Fact is that they are pretty much the same regardless of where you go.

All this education is essential but maybe we should also focus on quality of refresher education.

More soap box ramblings.

[Sir Andrew]

Oh no now you have done it now I can’t get the ideas to stop for changing the requirements to a one year college system for EMT-B training.

Can any one tell me what kind of classes that you would have if you were to take the medical part of EMT-B training and turn it into classes?

Here are some ideas for class that I have thought of

• Emergency Medical Communications

(With subjects to cover report writing, radio communications and etiquette)

• EMS history (as an elective)

• Defensive driving

• NCB response training (as an elective)

• Leadership & Management (as an elective)

• Anatomy & Physiology

• Medical Terminology

• Mass Trauma Skills

(not sure of a better name but this would cover the skills

needed for major tragedies and how to keep you head in it)

• English Comp.

• Math (not sure what type of math is needed for being an EMT)

• And I am, sure there are others to add to the list

One thing that would have to be done is make sure that it’s an accredited program so that they can transfer credits from one school to another. And for people like me that want to get another degree that would have some of the same classes, then they would not have to take them over again.

And since this is a new program there would need to be a bridge course for EMT-Bs to be able to move up to the new level of training.

Maybe what needs to be done is get a good idea of an over all plan for the new EMT-B training and then see if a state would give it a test try or even just find a college that would do it.

Some of the classes could be done as online or distance learning so that people that have to work to pay their way thru school would not have to stop working to do it and could also help to keep the cost down.

Sir Andrew the Upright

Paladin of the Light

May God Bless You

[rimdup]

Well it seems to me that this issue is on everyones minds. I've heard "education is the key" multiple times. I agree with what everyone says and would love to see a BS in Paramedicine sometime down the road. Now in comparison to Firefighters and Police officers, it sounds to me that most people think we should be a part of the health care field and not the public safefy field however still responding to 911 calls as a health care provider, part of the health care profession. Does that make since?? : ) So basically instead of being fire based EMS, maybe hospital based, and being a branch off of the hospital would lead to a more organized profession. My concern is fire and police 9 times out of 10 do not have a degree or earned a degree while working as a firefighter or police officer. So as trained Paramedics with most courses atleast 16-18 months long why can't we get the benefits and pay they do with out having a BS when they don't most of the time. (And yes, some police depts require a degree to get hired... before someone points that out)

[triemal04]

Here in Ontario the minimum BLS entry to practice is a 2-year diploma.... as in you have to have a 2 year course to do any kind of work on an ambulance. I can tell you that there is no shortage by any stretch of the imagination. Think hundreds of applicants for 20 jobs.

What's the average starting pay for a PCP in Canada? What are the benefits they get, if any, including a retirement package? What was it say 10 years ago?

I'm guessing that it's significantly higher than it is for an EMT-B (the lowest level of EMS provider in the US)...actually, I'm pretty sure of it. And I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that it's that high because the amount of education for even the lowest tier provider is pretty high. So, as the long as the pay is good (better in fact than here) I don't think you'd have any shortage of people going to school and applying for jobs; the numbers might actually increase, not for those who want to volunteer or do this as a hobby, but for those who actually want to do this as their profession. If the entry level has a fairly high level of education and each progressive level is higher, I'm guessing that many people who don't stay in EMS due to the limits on care would stay, and some that never got into it for that reason (because they felt they could provide better care as an RN or PA etc) might get into it. As well, if you are able to live off of the salary at the lowest level, then, while there may not be as much of a reason financially to move up, it will be easier.

Rimdup...I really doubt that the average paramedic course in the US is anywhere near 16 months long, let alone 18. I'd try something more like 12...or 10...or 9. Sad, but I'm pretty damn sure true.

[steve_emt_68]

Ok, without trying to cause a rebellion. Education is very important but requiring a degree in a field that has historically attracted those who didn't want to go to college is not going to help our recruitment efforts.

I for one would not be in EMS if I had to sit in a classroom and take college credits for things I felt were unrelated to my choosen profession.

Much of our problem in EMS lies within attitudes of those working in the profession. We have too many people who go through the motions of responding to calls. We have people who have to be on the fire engien because it is their rotation. In my opinion, Fire based EMS has a hugh detremental effect due to the fact that too many are forced into EMS duty.

Medicare and insurance companies have played a major roll in the demise of private EMS organizations due to low reimbursements, thus forcing companies to put off repairing and/or replaceing equipment. Organizations have been forced to work short staffed by financial constraints. The latest technology is too expensive as well as the newest drug therapies. I do not see how having college educated EMS professionals will help us become recognized as a profession. We need to act like a profession. This means our actions our dress our speech our attitudes. It means not having Paramedics in the news because they stole narcotics or abused a patient. It means not being arrested for drunk driving while operating the ambulance. It means not wearing shorts, a wife beater and flip flops to calls. It means no more running down to the diner to talk about your last great call or worse yet the really nasty call. It means not standing at the convenience store telling off color jokes where others can hear you.

Each of our organizations must make it a point of educating the public about EMS. You personally must make it your mission to educate the public about EMS. We all must hold each other to the highest standards. Quit covering up for the crappy EMS providers in your organization, clean house. Do you represent EMS as a true professional on and off duty?

As a manager, I have had to remind employees in the past that those that you party with on saturday night may be your patient on sunday morning. I ask you again, do you represent EMS as a professional on and off duty or are you only a professional when you are in uniform or worse yet when you are on the clock?

The short term answer to the question is in our attitudes as EMS providers, are we promoting ourselves as well as the fire service has done over the years. How many organizations actively promote EMS week? Fire departments promote Fire awareness. How many of your squads are sparkling clean right now? Fire trucks are. How many of your stations are spotlessly clean? Fire departments are.

My point is that the public views them as professionals, are we living up to that same standard. Unfortunately the standards for public safety workers was set long before EMS was even a reality. We must first act like professionals before we change the requirements to become a professional.

[BushyFromOz]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

I do not see how having college educated EMS professionals will help us become recognized as a profession.

Sure thing, take the formal education out of you doctors, nurses, lawyer and im sure you will still call them professionals right?

Heres a thought maybe if it were actually difficult to get intot the vocation, you would attract less dickheads. No dickheads, less dickheadery, right?

[triemal04]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Sure thing, take the formal education out of you doctors, nurses, lawyer and im sure you will still call them professionals right?

Heres a thought maybe if it were actually difficult to get intot the vocation, you would attract less dickheads. No dickheads, less dickheadery, right?

Short sweet and to the point. I like it. =D>

[EMS49393]

Dickheadery!! I will just have to use that the next time I have to precept some six month wonder parapup that thinks they know everything there is to know about everything and has never set foot in a college classroom.

Amen! =D>

[Sir Andrew]

My concern is fire and police 9 times out of 10 do not have a degree or earned a degree while working as a firefighter or police officer. So as trained Paramedics with most courses atleast 16-18 months long why can't we get the benefits and pay they do with out having a BS when they don't most of the time. (And yes, some police depts require a degree to get hired... before someone points that out)

Something that you may want to think about when you make that statement how many times are you chasing your Pt. who has a gun trying to shoot you before you can help them?

And how many times do you have to fight a fire to get to your Pt. or does some one else do that for you?

I know that some of you are FF/EMTs so that last one might not count for you but for the basic EMTs

Not that I am saying your job(s) are not worth better pay, I believe they are but I also believe that due to the fact that you are dealing with a human body and life that a better education would be a big help.

Please don't think I am saying you are wrong to want better pay. Or that I am picking on you, it's just that I am not an EMT so I look at things in a different way than you would