DustDevil Exposed !!

[DwayneEMTP]

So you've had enough, so what?

Dust has made some logical arguments. Time and time again he's challenged you to express yours in an intelligent, logical manner. You have still failed to do so.

I often look forward to your posts, but these silly, "I'm so dang mad I just have to say something", 5th grade rants certainly don't fall into that catergory.

Dust says the same things over and over...consistantly validating his points with proof when possible, strong logic at the least.

You coming in here and kicking and screaming simply reinforced his point that "your" side has no valid arguments, can't you see that?

Good luck with your new tact....I for one hope the tantrums won't last and you'll someday go back to the quality logic, if expressed in single paragraphs, that we've come to expect from you....

Dwayne

[spenac]

NREMT-Basic I agree at times DD is an overly opinionated blunt person. In fact I have been personally attacked by him even after having been asked to attend his wedding. His way is very direct and yes at times he is to blunt when against his opinion. This is his personality. But he also if you ignore the bluntness brings out many very good points.

But what is funny to me you are the same way. You made so many derogatory statements to those of us who disagreed with you about the value of your response teams. In fact at times I thought you might be DD's split personality. Both overly opinionated and overly blunt at times, just on opposite ends of the spectrum.

But guess what strong opinions lead to much debate. Yes at times we need to tone down the personal attacks. I have been working on that very subject. I do hope we all learn to hold true to our opinions but do so with more tact.

No offense meant to anyone.

[chbare]

DwayneEMTB, I agree. NREMT-Basic, you have had some great posts and many times I have enjoyed reading your conversation. Brother, I think you need to take a little vacation and find your happy place. Remember, at the end of the day this is just a public forum. And comparing Dustdevil to Bill O'Reilly? I always though Michael Savage was a better comparison.

Take care,

chbare.

[NREMT-Basic]

NREMT-Basic I agree at times DD is an overly opinionated blunt person. In fact I have been personally attacked by him even after having been asked to attend his wedding. His way is very direct and yes at times he is to blunt when against his opinion. This is his personality. But he also if you ignore the bluntness brings out many very good points.

But what is funny to me you are the same way. You made so many derogatory statements to those of us who disagreed with you about the value of your response teams. In fact at times I thought you might be DD's split personality. Both overly opinionated and overly blunt at times, just on opposite ends of the spectrum.

But guess what strong opinions lead to much debate. Yes at times we need to tone down the personal attacks. I have been working on that very subject. I do hope we all learn to hold true to our opinions but do so with more tact.

No offense meant to anyone.

1. I do not deny that I am an extremely opinionated and blunt person. Ive never denied that and I dont see it as a bad thing, either in myself or in DD. If you think that's my problem with him and what he posts, you've missed my point.

2. It isnt MY response team. It belongs to the people of the State of Illinois. They pay for it. And though I dont remember making personal attacks or insulting individuals, I wont deny that I may have done it. I will go back to and read that thread and if I made insulting comments, I wish to issue an apology for it. Alot of people got upset by what I said because I said that local fire departments, EMS agencies, police departments and hospitals would rapidly become overwhelmed (in an event like what is being discussed in the New Madrid thread), but I dont remember saying that those agencies were useless and were the reason that EMS is failing and has only been getting worse for 30 years. If you listen to DDs interview, he states that as a fact. He states that EMS has been in a decline for 30+ years and that people who do EMS as a "hobby" (ie volunteers) are the reason for it. He also makes statements which are not based in fact. When he states that there havent been any advances in EMS in 30 years, thats just plain wrong and a silly thing to say. IV access, defibrilators, I/O drills, VorTran ventilators...it seems to me that these are huge advances and they are only the tip of the iceberg. But to say that they were advances wouldnt fit his egotistical paradigm of the decline and fall of EMS. If you listen to him, what he is saying is that Basics and Volunteers are the primary reason for this downfall because they responsible for the lack of EMS professionalism.

3. What stuns me, is that every single person who is an EMT-Basic, or a fire service based EMT or Paramedic or a volunteer EMS provider is not outraged and offended by his constant insults. Time and time again, I have asked him to provide facts that say that Basics cannot provide excellent BLS, BTLS and BCLS care. Ive asked him to show why the quality of care given by volunteers is less than that of paid responders. Ive asked him to demonstrate why EMT-Bs should be eliminated or relegated to status as drivers. Its not just that he does not provide this information, its that he cant because it isnt based in documentable fact. And of course he is entitled to his opinion just as everyone is. But when he starts to be derogatory to Basics, to tell them they are worthless idiots who arent worthy of taking vital signs, youre damn right I take that personally. And something that is even more upsetting is that he seems to view himself above the mandate placed by the moderators that bashing of Basics, volunteers and fire fighters cease. He simply doesnt care. He believes that rules of common courtesy dont apply to him. He delights in being not only derogatory and insulting, but demeaning. Anyone who says that teenage EMTs are alright as partners are acceptable as long as they are hot and willing to have sex with him deserves to be called out in public.

As I said, since I made my original post in this thread, I have received several PMs telling me that people appreciate what I said and that I am not the only one who feels the way I feel, that I am not the only one who is sick and tired of hearing him spout his constant demeaning garbage.

And youre right. There is a certain personal aspect to this. For a long time, I saw DD as both a good friend and a valued mentor. I was so in awe of him that I asked for a flag that he had worn to place on my uniform to honor the wonderful work that he does. But things pile up. His insults and slams become intolerable. The bad outweighs the good. At this point, I am saddened to have lost him as a friend but there are things that over-ride friendship and when someone tells you that you are worthless because you are a volunteer or a basic, that person is certainly not your friend and is not worth of being a mentor. I respect Dust for his service as I respect anyone that wears the uniform and does the work of their country or state or community. But that respect pales in comparison not to the personal insult I feel over what he says, but to his pompous and demeaning attitude and the notion that because he has been involved in EMS for 35 years that he is some sort of god and as such we should not only accept his constant vitriol against others but thank him for the privilege. I'll take a Basic any day as a partner before I would take some like DD for whom the term "paragod" isnt even sufficient to cover the base and hideous way he speaks about others who only want to serve others in their time of need.

[vs-eh?]

PRPG's old EMS radio show with NREMT-Basic, Rid, and myself > this.

/thread

[JPINFV]

3. What stuns me, is that every single person who is an EMT-Basic, or a fire service based EMT or Paramedic or a volunteer EMS provider is not outraged and offended by his constant insults.

Why? Is it wrong for an EMT-B to agree with him that EMT-Bs are woefully under educated for what is being asked of them as a primary provider? Is it wrong to agree that two of the biggest road blocks to increasing the required education are EMS based fire suppression systems (who don't want their firefighters in school for a long time) or volunteers (who complain that if school was too long that they'd have a larger problem attracting volunteers)?

Time and time again, I have asked him to provide facts that say that Basics cannot provide excellent BLS, BTLS and BCLS care.

The problem is that by the time you need BCLS, it's already too late. EMS does not save cardiac arrests. EMS saves pre-arrest patients by keeping them from going into arrest. EMT-Bs, by the nature of their limited scope of practice [i will argue that medical care is, in large part, skills because all the education in the world will do you no good if you can't affect the outcome], are very poor at keeping pre-arrest patients from going into arrest. Its very hard to argue that EMT-Bs should have a larger scope of practice, though, when the average EMT-B has something less than 150 hours of class time. The fact that an EMT-B program requires more time is irrelevant because things like scopes of practice are geared towards the lowest common denominator, not the high outliers.

Ive asked him to show why the quality of care given by volunteers is less than that of paid responders. Ive asked him to demonstrate why EMT-Bs should be eliminated or relegated to status as drivers.

It is my understanding that most volunteers are EMT-Bs. See above for why EMT-Bs should not be considered as a primary provider. Furthermore, how often do you hear about paid providers crashing their POV while responding to a call with their hazard lights on? How often to paid providers respond in jeans and a t-shirt? Yes, unprofessionalism is, rightfully so most of the time, also charged against EMT-Bs working interfacility transport [non-emergency transport] jobs. There has also been calls made by Dust and "Dust groupies" that such jobs do not fall into the realm of EMS and need not, and should not, be done by ambulances. Thank Medicare, though, for not reimbursing gurney vans.

Its not just that he does not provide this information, its that he cant because it isnt based in documentable fact. And of course he is entitled to his opinion just as everyone is. But when he starts to be derogatory to Basics, to tell them they are worthless idiots who arent worthy of taking vital signs, youre damn right I take that personally.

There are somethings that can be a priori. You don't need evidence to show that the level of care provided by EMT-Bs are vastly inferior to the care provided by EMT-Ps. Now, saying that one level is below another is not a bash on members of the lower level. That's like saying that NPs and PAs should be aghast that they have to work under a physician ("collaborate" and "supervise" are the specific terms if I understand the physician/mid-level provider relationship properly). That's not to say that NPs or PAs are stupid. That said, there is a vast difference between comparing master degree level provider positions to a 120 hour provider position.

And something that is even more upsetting is that he seems to view himself above the mandate placed by the moderators that bashing of Basics, volunteers and fire fighters cease. He simply doesnt care. He believes that rules of common courtesy dont apply to him. He delights in being not only derogatory and insulting, but demeaning.

There's a difference between "EMT-Bs are ignorant and shouldn't be on an ambulance" and "EMT-Bs are ignorant and shouldn't be on an ambulance because EMT-B school isn't long enough to cover material like A/P, pathophysiology, and other supporting fields of study (biochem, etc) long enough to provide an adequate knowledge base and justify a large enough scope of practice." One is a slam, the other is an argument. Just because an argument is negative doesn't mean that it's a slam.

Anyone who says that teenage EMTs are alright as partners are acceptable as long as they are hot and willing to have sex with him deserves to be called out in public.

I'm sure that, in large part, he's being sarcastic. Sure, I'd take a hot partner than a fat old man any day of the week, provided that both providers offered a reasonable and comparable level of care. That said, 18 year olds are perfectly legal adult teenagers.

[AnthonyM83]

I guess I will be the one with the brass ones to say it: i was pretty disappointed by this interview but not as incensed and outraged at I was by a post Dust made on another non-EMS related site recently once again re-rating Basics. All I heard in the interview was Dust once again telling us how much cool experience he has and saying a lot of "Ummm...we need to be more professional." As for the scathing post about Basics on another site, I guess he had to take it elsewhere since we were all told to stop that bull-durham on this site. So Dust, what are you doing to fix the major problems with EMS professionalism? And before you be-rate me as a 120 hour Basic, I recently checked with my EMS instructor and my class was 280 hours. Why dont you do something instead of just bashing people all the time. I used to really, REALLY look to you for advice and guidance in my EMS career and no I just find your constantly spewed bilge about Basics being the end of EMS so putrid and disgusting that I generally find myself screaming at my monitor every time I read anything you have to write..

I honestly haven't listened to it all, but if Dust was just talking about increasing professionalism, education, and overall uselessness of Basics (as used in our system today), I don't really see anything wrong with that. Those are his main ideas he tries to disseminate ant it would make sense that the interview content (meant to spread idea to other EMS personnel who don't use EMTCity) would mirror the content of his posts here.

As far as the Basics argument, you realize that the main problem with them isn't that the people holding the cert are stupid, but rather the cert level itself and education needed for the cert level in inadequate to provide the kind of quality EMS we're shooting for? When you get down to it, Basic's training, even if top student, (unless you go to one of the rare super programs) is based on very simple algorithms. He and others think that's inadequate. Our society deserves better and our profession should be putting out better.

[NREMT-Basic]

I honestly haven't listened to it all, but if Dust was just talking about increasing professionalism, education, and overall uselessness of Basics (as used in our system today), I don't really see anything wrong with that. Those are his main ideas he tries to disseminate ant it would make sense that the interview content (meant to spread idea to other EMS personnel who don't use EMTCity) would mirror the content of his posts here.

Perhaps it is not the basics that are the problem but rather the system that doesnt know how to use them. And I wish we could get a new number other than 120 hours. As I said, my didactic hours were in excess of 250 and I did close to 100 clinical hours in everything from surgery, to ER, to cadaver labs, to OBGYN and I spent alot of off the clock time travelling to other hospitals and services where i though I could get a bit more excellent training. In addition, as I have said, I have close to 1000 hours in western clinical science including biology, chem, a and p, med term, diagnostics, phlebotomy.....Folks like you and DD arent interested in what the problem is or how to fix it, only who to blame for it. But, the trail of DD sycophants goes on and I see that he has yet to show his face.

As far as the Basics argument, you realize that the main problem with them isn't that the people holding the cert are stupid, but rather the cert level itself and education needed for the cert level in inadequate to provide the kind of quality EMS we're shooting for? When you get down to it, Basic's training, even if top student, (unless you go to one of the rare super programs) is based on very simple algorithms. He and others think that's inadequate. Our society deserves better and our profession should be putting out better.

[AnthonyM83]

Perhaps it is not the basics that are the problem but rather the system that doesnt know how to use them. And I wish we could get a new number other than 120 hours. As I said, my didactic hours were in excess of 250 and I did close to 100 clinical hours in everything from surgery, to ER, to cadaver labs, to OBGYN and I spent alot of off the clock time travelling to other hospitals and services where i though I could get a bit more excellent training. In addition, as I have said, I have close to 1000 hours in western clinical science including biology, chem, a and p, med term, diagnostics, phlebotomy.....Folks like you and DD arent interested in what the problem is or how to fix it, only who to blame for it. But, the trail of DD sycophants goes on and I see that he has yet to show his face.

It might very well be the system that doesn't know how to use that basic cert level. I think many of us believe they are useful as first responders. This would be us criticizing the system, not the actual basics.

About a third of your post was devoted to hours under your belt, but you must realize we have to refer to the common norm of 120 hours, rather than to the exception of 250 hours. Not that 250+ hours is adequate for where we'd like the EMS field to be.

You also list personal accomplishments, but what the heck does that have to do with the EMT-Basic cert level that's being discussed? There's a few others here with undergrad/grad degrees in biological sciences, heck there's doctors that maintain their paramedic certs, but how does that relate to whether the EMT-Basic cert level is adequate and useful to the level of proficiency, competency, professionalism, and ability of the EMS system we'd like to have?

You threw out accusations at the end of that post, but didn't support them. There wasn't much support in that whole post. I'll await more. You also know Dust doesn't reply to things right away (he's not even on everyday). Maybe he doesn't even feel like replying. Who knows. Give it time.

[fireflymedic]

As someone who primarily serves in a rural setting, but have been in just about every type of EMS setting short of flight (which hopefully one day I will) with 8 years of experience (not NEARLY enough, but enough I feel to comment on this) I can say when I started with my 120 hour basic, complete with 150 hours of ride time, and 10 hours in ER (more requirement than most have) finishing at the top of my class I walked out knowing just enough to kill someone. I spent nearly three years on the truck before I was expected to respond 911 and by that time did I feel comfortable and adequate to manage a severely injured patient for 45 min until they reached the hospital? Absolutely not, nor do I think any other basic is prepared adequately for this situation. I know the response already - well call for ALS or a helicopter. In my area, you can't get another truck and frequently helicopters can't fly due to weather or land due to the terrain. Would I want a basic fresh out of class managing my family or me in that situation? No way. I do believe the education standards should be raised. NREMT is moving the right direction with the push for a minimum of 2 year degrees for medics by 2012. Will this affect education? I hope so. It might make things a little tougher for people to get their medic as every joe and sam fire department or ems service but it might cause us to raise the requirements and gain some of the professionalism that Dust is talking about. It did for the nursing profession, I don't see how it could hurt us. Think about the job and what you really want to get from it. Do you want respect and to treat patients with the best amount of care? Or do you want to do what's easy for you? Expand your horizons and push for the best of patient care. If more is asked of me, I will give it. I am in this not for the money 'cause Lord knows I don't make enough, I got in it 'cause I love what I do and the challenge good patient care brings. If that means taking my education to higher levels, then I'm all for it.