Need to vent a little

[shorthairedpunk]

i hate the taking gods place statements. God doesnt just let people live, he lets them die as well. By attempting to save a dying individual, under that statement, you are in fact stepping in and trying to take gods place.

[craig]

with out getting too philosophical about it

if we are stepping in to save a life and 'taking gods place'

why do we do anything at all.

if we are badly cut and bleeding o death surly by stopping the bleeding we may be stopping the person from dying and 'taking gods place'

opens up a big can of worms

reminds me of the show 'Tru Calling"

stay safe

[shorthairedpunk]

thats the point, you cant call the same thing by different names, letting someone die is the same as helping them live, if you want to call it playing god, then look at it realistically, not from a one sided point of view with a holier than thou attitude.

[THE_DITCH_DOCTOR]

SHP, I didn't realize you had a philosophical side. Nicely put.

[Guest]

Let's take the GOD thing to the level it should be......if we weren't meant to save lives do you really think we would have the intellect to do it? if a person is meant to die no matter what then a few piddly needles and some fluid sure as hell aren't going to save them! Death IS part of the devine plan and maybe injuries are too! Just my .02

[buddha]

Fact is, as much as we all hate to admit it, we are not in control. Whether you choose to believe in God, or Allah, or Buddha, or the Great Spirits, Fate, or simply in the power of the Universe - you unconsciously concede that many things are beyond your control. That being said, what gives any of us the right to judge right or wrong??? The way I see it, we are merely an instrument of whatever higher power you choose to believe in. Some patients are meant to live, and we save them. Some are meant to die, and we lose them. These situations are not a reflection on us, but the natural order of life. Health care providers have become selfish - we want every patient to live, and we throw all kinds of tantrums when they don't. Modern medicine is so focused on prolonging life that millions of dollars are spent keeping the shells of people alive for years past what would have been a productive span - millions of dollars that would provide care to sick and dying children all over the world. We have become so obsessed with prolonging life that we are trying to force our will upon whatever higher being calls the shots, and that is where the trouble lies. It is easy for you to sit in judgment out here in cyberspace, but we do not know what actually transpired with this patient. Perhaps if we were there, our opinions might be vastly different. We should be at the top of our game every shift and we should give 110% of ourselves to each patient, but we should also realize that we are not in control of any patient's destiny. Whether we like it or not, who ultimately lives or dies is not our choice.

[Guest]

THANK YOU BUDDHA!!!!

[Great_Llama]

Personally the statement I was referring to was that of the Down's Syndrome patient was better off dead because he had downs syndrome, since his quality of life was "horrible". That is an opinion, which you are entitled to, but it's not shared by everyone, including some people that have downs, ms, etc, etc.

As I said, if the patient chose to not be resuscitated then fine, if the family made that choice, that is also their right. It's their loved one and/or the patients choice in these matters...what makes a Will so important. If the docs knew they couldn't save him and trying wouldn't change the outcome, I personally have to trust to their judgment. I wouldn't want my loved ones going through useless procedures that wouldn't make any difference. However if there is a chance that that will give them a chance at more life, even if only 6 months, I'm going to want them to try...because you simply never know. I can't know this patients mind or his families, so I'll leave it at that. It's done anyway, but if you save a life, it's a save, whether you "think" they'll have a quality life or not. In my opinion some drug addicts would be better off dead, they don't have much quality of life in my opinion, but you'd try and save them and so would I. Perhaps they'll turn around, perhaps not, but that isn't my call.

40-50 years is not a short span of time, though it's certainly too young to die, my Mom died at 50, it's still 50 years. I buried two friends not too long ago in their early 50's. Saying that to show that many people die at 50, whether downs or not, but they deserve every chance they can get to live. Even if it was 20 years we should give the person a chance at life if they choose that way and it's possible...even if that possibility is slim. I've seen "miracles", whether you call them medical miracles or whatever, and I'm sure many of you have. It may not change his down's state, but again....we have the right to choose not to live with downs for ourselves, not for everyone else.

Whatever quality there is or lack thereof is your opinion and that was my only real point. You are certainly entitled to that opinion, but I personally disagree with it. What's next? Let everyone who is paralyzed from the waste down die? I mean they have a life, but it's certainly not as quality as someone who has full use of their bodies....I mean it can't be can it? I bet it's quality to them, at least the ones that choose to live with their injuries and overcome them. This case simply stirred the hornet's nest I guess over this issue which will always be argued where ever there are two people, cause everyone has a thought. Whether playing God or not, it's not up to us to decide who should live and who should die based on their disease or their "life expectancy" which is a guess at best. And just because it happens doesn't make it right.

Anyway, since I think this has gone past the arguing of this case, which I don't really have the expertise to speak on much, I'll move along. I wasn't really arguing the case itself anyway. The belief that if you have downs syndrome or something that lessens your quality of life you should be allowed to die is in my opinion pompous in the extreme. Perhaps you only meant in this case and if so, again...I wasn't there I can't argue whether the docs did the right thing, but it seemed that this was being said in general of all downs patients that got injured and that is wrong in my opinion.

Cheers

[THE_DITCH_DOCTOR]

I think you're missing something here....I said that given his prior medical history AND the insult he suffered, there is little chance in him surviving. If this were a 80 year old with end stage Alzheimer's who coded we wouldn't be having this debate, despite a similar baseline level of mental function and similar likelihood to live for a long period of time. What is it with the warm and fuzzy feeling that so many people have for the mentally retarded? It's a medical condition just like anything else that destroys or prevents the capacity to function like the rest of us, so I don't understand the disparate opinions.

[shorthairedpunk]

uh oh

mental and physical ailments are two totally different ballgames buddy, unless physical ailments result from the underlying mental impairment. My sister has cerebral palsey and lives in a home, but she has a productive and very happy life (as productive as you can have without the ability to fully function in the outside world)