akflightmedic

I get the difference, but my point remains. Rules are still rules, and I honestly don't think it's a problem, imposition, or inappropriate to subject someone to a sermon about God if that is what the shelter is all about.

How about this for an analogy- albeit a bit odd? Time share condo presentations. They offer you a free TV, a pair of airline tickets etc, if you attend a time share condo sales pitch. If you want the freebie, you must listen to the high pressure pitch for the joys of time share condos. You'll get your freebie in the end, but you don't have to actually buy the condo- regardless of how hard they pressure you.

Same for the God lecture at a shelter.. They can't force you to "find God", but you do need to listen to the sales pitch to get your freebie. In both cases you know going in what will be expected of you.

Your comparison is not valid. When you choose to go to a time share pitch, you know what is coming--a hard sales pitch. Where do these time share pitches take place? IN tourist areas, places where you are already on vacation 99% of the time. Vacation!! So you either drove, flew or cruised to somewhere nice, you are in feel good state of mind with your loved ones or friends...and they try to capitalize on that current mental status to sell you a time share. It is one of the hardest sells a consumer will ever walk into and a lot do not walk out without signing on the dotted line unfortunately.

Regardless, the thing I wish to point out in the above scenario is no one was hungry, no one was homeless and no one was jobless. Overall they are happy as they are on vacation spending disposable income (money they don't need).

On the flip side, you are trying to compare this to a man, woman or family who has lost their home or are living in a hotel, they experience hunger daily, they have no job or one that pays not enough to live on, and they most certainly do NOT take vacations unless you consider moving from one city park to another a holiday.

Their state of mind is one of despair, hurt, anger, lost, sad, misery...at least this is what we "rich" people assume. The church, ministry whatever sees this condition and soars in. Salvation gets ya food, salvation gets ya shelter...this is bullshit.

This is psychology at work here in both scenarios however what pisses me off is in the first group no one is hurting and they enter the hot seat willingly.

In the second group, one group is using/taking advantage of the lesser group.

A person who has a job and money can walk away from a sales pitch. I have done the time share excursions for the free stuff and I enjoy the challenge of saying no to a hard sell.

A person without these things, someone hungry...and you feel the need to dangle food in front of them but only after they listen....listen to the very story that says give to the needy, care for one another because you can. This is major hypocrisy. I would expect a christian to give as freely as I do with no restrictions on the gift.

Kick a man when he is down and claim you are helping him. Of course in truth, I know the church loves war, famine, mass illness and global disasters. They love the economy tanking as "it brings them in the door". Pretty amazing when a group has to desire bad things occur to good people to increase their membership so they may spoon feed them the end goal desire of wanting the ultimate bad thing to happen--end of times.

No mistake about it, I understand rules and regs when it is you who is doling it out (curfews, no drugs...these are all reasonable). What I do not like is the preaching being mandated if you are hungry or homeless. In my opinion that goes against the teachings of the christian values. You give because you can, because you care. Let your actions speak louder than your words. But when you take a person who is undergoing what may be the most downtrodden time of their life, and insist they listen to YOUR beliefs, or try to convert them to YOUR beliefs before you give a helping hand--that is wrong.

I give because I care about my fellow man. Life sucks, bad things happen and we help each other stand up.

Nice to see my donations being put to good use!

And no, I give to many different causes not just the one that promotes public signage lessening the stigma of atheism.

Freedom From Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance (scholarships/awareness) are my two main ones due to exposure. But then I have many smaller groups I donate to. I am very careful when choosing as I want no religious influence. A homeless man should never have to sit through a sermon to get a sandwich!

Anyways, regarding the signs, they are going up everywhere. They are even being put on the side of public buses-that one created a HUGE issue as it was denied at first.

If I can drive down the road and see an all black billboard with white writing given some stupid saying and the author is "god"...then I absolutely have every right to put signs exposing the real atheists for the kind, caring, intellectuals we are.

When signs like these appear, the real danger is the person behind this sign.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://thevillageheathen.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/atheist_billboard.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thevillageheathen.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/atheist-billboards-2/&h=375&w=500&sz=45&tbnid=drs80n4JeQdMZM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Datheist%2Bbillboards%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=atheist+billboards&docid=EvLycHBk9O1lCM&sa=X&ei=dT9hTryvOYW3tweqwOX2Dw&ved=0CCgQ9QEwAQ&dur=3635

When patriotism and religion are portrayed as synonymous...that is a very dangerous and slippery slope.

I am very patriotic. believing or not believing in a god has absolutely nothing to do with how I care for my country. This is a insult to the average American intelligence as they are trying to convince the masses that if there is no god then you are not an American which is utter bull shit. Thousands of Americans have died for this country, thousands of Atheists, Freethinkers, Agnostics, Secularists, and every other religion every thought of. To equate the christian god with patriotism is extremely dishonest and an unfair comparison.

it should have read "did something happen to you".

No worries. I am always up for a great discussion. But again, even with the rewording above...it is no different that saying to a lesbian "Whats wrong, who was the man who made you become this" or saying to the gay guy "What did some chick dump you, did your father not love you, etc".

The people of the opposing position or thought always assume that something had to happen (usually negative) to make a person that way. It is this illogical stance which drives me bat shit.

Really don't care about Penn. In every other disscussion one would expect that the references would be qualified. Why would I want to disscuss Penn's opinion?

You are still avoiding what was said. You are being intellectually dishonest by continuing to focus on Penn instead of what he said. He is just as qualified to give an opinion on religion as I am...unless you are suggesting I have no voice here either. And if that goes for me, then that goes for everyone which leads me back to an earlier point of religious dissension/discussion/questioning not being tolerated followed by heavy censorship and control of the people. The dark ages were called that for a reason...one of the most religious times of our history ironically was one of the worst intellectually and artistically speaking. Everything came to a crawl and so much knowledge and skills were lost. Education was non existent nor encouraged...

Penn Jillete PHD in theology? I don't think so. Using him to discuss religion is like citing Gomer Pyle for ALS.

So instead of discussing what was actually said, it is easier to attempt to discredit the messenger and totally remove focus from the words.

Regardless of who said it or who is worthy of saying it--it is valid point and you can easily discuss, dispute or counter the WORDS. Who said you need a PhD in theology to discuss religion or share opinions, and this particular opinion makes a LOT of sense.

AK I have a question for you Were you brought up with a certain religion as a child. You remind me of one of my best friends that was raised JW, raised her kids as JW until as she calls it she saw the light (that light was her going unconsious as her JW ex-husband was choking the life out of her) She is now a devout atheist and sometimes she is just mean about it. I have found that people that are that strong in being an atheist have had a traumatic experience. With me it was a priest telling me never to enter his church again as I was a product of the Devil.(all I did was faint while in the choir). I am a fence sitter on this subject but would like to think that there is something after death.

I go to church 2 time a year and if our priest asks me to go I will. I go to weddings and to funerals so I guess in the most part I hope Im going somewhere but who knows.

Ruff I have a question for you also. If you believe in Adam and Eve were the creators of us all, did we all come from incest. I did ask a religious person and was told, oh the bible talks of there being others? Just wanted to know your thoughts on that.

That is a very common misconception regarding atheists...those of the faith always assume something bad had to happen which I find hilarious. They also state well you dont know god, or you dont know him like I do, or you havent truly opened yourself to him. Hmmm, thanks a ton. It all boils down to me having a brain filled with reason and logic. People are good without god, millions are every day. People are happy and moral without god. Morals are independent of religion, this is a fact.

I am entirely happy with my life, I feel whole, I love my fellow humans, I care and I give. But no religious person will accept me making those claims because there is "something missing".

I have studied many religions and have stated in previous threads one of my favorite subjects is history and religious history in particular. The more I read, the more I learned, that further I got away from any organized religion. It simply does not compute. I can quote bible verses all day long, I can make people feel warm and fuzzy with total bull shit...if my moral compass were titled, I could make a fortune as a evangelist. I have that personality and could make so many feel loved and blessed as they supported my lavish lifestyle. However I choose not to abuse my talents and instead apply them and a lot of hard work to my business.

I was the first person in my family to be baptized at age 12 at MY request. I had been attending church, was an acolyte, loved it. I started teaching Sunday school at age 14, went to the retreats, regular church. But I kept reading, I kept studying because ti all fascinated me. And as stated above, the more I learned, the less I believed because none of it computes. Throw in a dash of psychology along with the religious history lessons and boom...your eyes are opened.

However I also acknowledge it is human nature to always take the easy path. It is hard work to read and learn especially about religion. Most people just like to be spoon fed and take no responsibility for their religious education. It feels good to believe. I counter those who need it have way more empty lives than I do. I appreciate every single day and experience as this is it. For me there is no do over. I will not spend my life preparing for an after life. I am going to enjoy this one right here, right now. One of the greatest events to come of a christians life is the rapture. They want it to come. They want death and destruction on everyone but themselves so they can ascend to heaven...seems a little crazy to me to wish that on anyone...

Regarding the Adam and Eve question, most apologetics will state "that was the old testament" or "that is not meant to be literal"....but then other parts they will say "It is meant to be literal"...anyways, it is always swung whichever way is needed for that current discussion, but the fact remains, the rules of interpretation are all man made as I have yet to see a Manual of Bible Interp 101 written and authorized by god.

My apologies AK, it was one of Squint's replies that he had struck through part of my post. Again my apologies.

Ok, one hypothetical question. If God didn't exist prior to those 1000's of Gods, could they not be one in the same? For arguments sake and my being obstinate - couldn't those God's that came before the Christian god, be the creators of the Christian God therefore negating your stance that God did not come out of nothing therefore he does have his own creator?

Food for thought or discussion:

❝There is no god, and that’s the simple truth. If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again.❞ - Penn Jillette

I was gonna comment but you know my hair status...

Everyone who has been here a while should have 2005 as their earliest possible join date even if they joined before then. That was the year the server was reset and everyone had a "new" join date based on when they logged in after the reset.

Censoring???? I have not touched anything...what are you talking about? Why would I censor anything? It gives me nothing to discuss if I remove things...erasing offensive words, books, etc is a religious tactic.

Like I said, I do not find the word god offensive. It has no meaning to me other than a talking point or an infringement on my human rights. Censoring does not fix that last problem, therefore it remains.

God did not exist for a very long time. He is predated by 1000s of gods, but as time went on and man changed, became more intelligent, god evolved as well. This is documented within all religions, they come and go. Christian god is very young relatively speaking in the overall history of gods.

Something cannot just come out of nothing.

So please introduce me to god's mommy and daddy and then their parents and so on...oh wait...the something cannot come from nothing argument applies to everything BUT god...my bad. How could I have been so silly to think differently.

Apparently not since they have followers...charismatic individuals able to swing or influence public action. Those guys still exist today and they are considered con men, not lunatics largely in part due to the society at that time being extremely superstitious, ignorant and illiterate. Control the masses and you control the wealth...how do you control the masses...religion.

Another little tid bit not of my own is the saying "You are every bit an atheist as I am...I take it one god further than you". Think about it, for every single god who has long become mythology, for every other god still in existence, for every reason you disbelieve those gods...I do the same for your god.

I have no need to say 100% Christians are wrong...what I do need to say is their beliefs need not infringe on my life, my values, my existence. That needs to stop.

I am 100% comfortable saying all evidence at this current time presents no logical conclusion that a god or gods exist.

Naw man, you cannot just end it and walk away. There are others watching and they will reach in eventually. The discussion is very valid as you are thinking even though you are not answering.

I know it is not your words, it is the words of a man who said god spoke to him. A lunatic in today's society...

Really not much of a stalemate either as the purpose was to further understanding and promote discussion. There is nothing to win or lose, so if youa re done, say you are done but do not try to end it as a no win/no loss situation.

And I view it this way...for the sake of debate..let us say you are right. There is a god and heaven and hell...would the creator be pleased that I used the brain and logic he gave me, I utilized all the resources he wired in my system? Or will he be happy that I ignored rational thought and chose to follow blindly avoiding the gifts bestowed upon me? I have lived a good life...you mean in spite of living well, questioning everything...I still should be banished to eternal hell/damnation? Not very kind at all...

And until each of us dies, we won't know if we were right or wrong will we.

So we all go on with out lives the way we wish to live, to believe what we want and what we don't want.

We all need that at least in my short 43 years I've learned that we need to hold on to certain things.

Can our belief system be changed, yep, it can if the right and valid argument is presented but it's pretty hard to change a belief system if it clashes with what we know or think we know currently.

See, this was a good exercise. Neither of us budged on our positions yet we had a good discussion.

You are leading up to Pascal's Wager.

Anyways, yes we live and believe as we personally need BUT the issue is when those beliefs infringe on my daily living, my chosen way of life, when those beliefs of others control my life or actions...that is a HUGE problem...hence some of my disdain for all things religious.

And until we achieve a secular society, I will continue to strongly oppose all things religious and endeavor to abolish their influence. Notice I did not say abolish them in itself, but their influence needs to go. Keep it personal, keep it at home, keep it in your house of worship. Everywhere else is for all to enjoy and live.

**And pay taxes...being a house of religion does not earn one a free pass on taxes when they use all resources funded by those same taxes. It is the biggest scam ever!

Not ridicule, just expressing my rationale as comfortably as you express yours.

I would not brand you a nut job but those who say they have been spoken to are not on my near and dear trust list. The burden is never on me to prove a negative, it is on the person who affirms it is so. Until that day comes, my brain allows me no ability to entertain nomadic tales of fantasy handed down by voice for generations before finally being put in writings which have since been altered numerous times over by religious leaders and kings, all with their own personal agendas--it is the human condition after all.

Thanks for chatting.

But many men in the biblical times spoke directly to god...they were not/are not considered nut jobs. In fact, many of the rituals, practices, beliefs, rules, etc are based on these personal conversations. But today if I say god told me to do something I am crazy and there is NO WAY god was the one talking to me...not your god for sure! Why not? Why can't your god talk to me? Why could it not be him giving me directives?

What if I said your god told me to write these things, it happened when I walked by a burning bush in Honduras. Why would you not believe me yet believe all the other folk tales?

External factors are other people's actions/decisions which impact me...those I cannot control. Nothing more, nothing less. What is scary is when those actions/decisions are based on their dogma as opposed to logic.

And a favorite quote:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"

Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

Yes but if he has the masterplan, how do you know you are choosing the right action or inaction? See what I am saying? Seems like an easy way out, because if he wanted you to rescue a voice would command or you would be pushed in the right direction. Or if neither of those happen and you stand idly, then that is the plan too? Are you sure? What if it is a test to see what you do when there are no instructions?

I praise myself when things go my way because they are usually a direct result of my actions. When they go poorly, I can usually find where I went wrong as well, but sometimes they are simply external factors which I cannot control. Regardless, good or bad the results were usually because of my actions or choices.

But according to you, to praise when good and refuse to blame when bad...how is that logical? If it was his masterplan, then why is there an issue? Why is it wrong to lay the blame where it belongs? Why only give praise?

I agree with all you said. You and I have had some pretty spirited discussions on this particular topic, religion.

I will address it from my perspective. Being religious really doesn't come in to play when it comes to rescue or working any type of call.

I can tell you for myself that I would also never ever ever consider a swift water rescue on two points. I am deathly afraid of swift water. Any water running faster than a normal canoe creek is running and there is someone needing help, 911 here I come. I would of course throw a rope or something in to help them but to attempt to rescue the person with more extreme means is not in my purveyance.

IF the water is running swift and I cannot see the bottom based on muddy water I'm not even going close to it. I have a family member who nearly drowned in a flash flood so that is where my fear comes from. I witnessed it.

On a religious side, it has nothin to do with whether I would attempt a rescue or not. God or Allah or whatever God you believe in really won't come to your rescue if it's your time to go.

I believe in God and I know others on this site believe in other gods or religions and some don't believe at all. I've been recalcitrant in the past in my opinions but I'm trying to see things from a different perspective. This reply is of course not a one religion is better than the other.

You summed it up very well and my response mimics yours, my family is the most important thing in this life to me. God's of course the highest but tangibly, my family is on the same level. I know that some bible thumpers would disagree with me but to me, I believe that God is real and exists but I cannot touch him, cannot hold or hug him. I can only believe in the afterlife that I will hopefully be a part of in heaven.

But for now, If I get home to my family at the end of the day, then all is right in the world. People die, several people have died during my writing this post. It's a fact of life and as long as I'm not one of the statistics or a darwin award recipient, and I go home to my family for another day, I'm happy.

People die, we cannot keep that from happening. Unfortunately when people do stupid things, sometimes EMS providers or public safety workers die while helping them. Sad but true.

What else you want to discuss AK?

Ok so I am confused more. If god does not come into play during a rescue or during any kind of work call (which I would assume a religious man would want it the most) when does it come into play? One of the perceived most critical times and you do not want it? When do you want it?

So you could stand there and say there is nothing to do? You would not ask yourself "is the god testing me"? You would not for a second wonder if this was your calling, your moment for existing?

FYI--the Christian god and Muslim god are one in the same-the two religions differ in prophets and creative writing skills at that time.

Thanks for your opinion and others who are religious may speak up...do these thoughts go through your mind?

Sorry I was traveling from Honduras to Atlanta...currently in the terminal now.

Had nothing to do with making me sick to my stomach as it revolts me no less than speaking of a unicorn or a flying spaghetti monster. Ignorance and a refusal to discuss anything which even remotely questions anything religious disgusts me. I do not allow religion a free pass, any religion and am always willing to discuss it on the intellectual and philosophical level.

As I stated, your topic was already addressed appropriately and I saw an opportunity to take a diversion and explore the flip side of the topic. My questions are valid as in my mind a religious man would wrestle with these decisions and it may either prompt or cease his intended actions.

Knowing you are a religious man, you are an appropriate person to direct these questions to...if you choose to answer.

It is through deep conversations such as these, the ones that make us really uncomfortable, sometimes even angry that we learn and grow together. Do you disagree? If not, do you wish to answer?

For me, I will answer my own questions as they are cut and dry.

I am not trained in water rescue, I would not attempt a rescue. I would not feel bad about it, this is life and sometimes bad things happen to good people and vice versa.I would not feel guilt or go through the what ifs. I would sleep well at night knowing my family still has me alive and knowing I can still enjoy them as much as possible instead of an annual remembrance.

Consider there is a person (alive by grace of god)

Oh Ruffles, don't you know me by now??? Since the others gave very good replies and I always like to look into the deeper meaning of our actions or non-actions, and the fact you gave me a door big enough to drive a truck through, lets flip the topic slightly from a different perspective.

So a man falls in the river and is alive by the grace of god. Wow! The omnipotent one has decided the best course of action for his toy clay creature was to toss him in a river AND let him survive it??

1. Do we intervene and attempt a rescue because this is really a test to us? (Cause it is always about us)

2. Do we let the man keep going downriver to a certain death because that was god's plan?

3. Do we spread our arms wide and look above and say Why god, oh why...what has this man done or why test me?

Any choice you made, it can and will all be spun to support the right action was performed according to god's plan.

The man will die but it will be god's plan and some money will be raised for his kids to go to college or the local squad to get rescue divers funded.

The witness will perform a rescue and of course it will be god who gave him the strength, willpower, determination to do it (even if he was a SEAL).

The witness will attempt a rescue and die along with the victim but both will be hailed as great men who never let a challenge slip by and they have now gone home to god (per his calling).

I just wish we could skip the bullshit and just fall over when it is time to "go home"...why all the drama in the first place?

They just got all crotchity and it was time to purge the reservation of those with crotchity behaviors.

Ummm, I have "heard" or been told that nebulizing alcohol is quite the rush...think about it..vaporize it, inhale it, straight to the lungs and in the blood! Great drunk!!..So I have heard.

Ok, so lets extrapolate the numbers for shits and giggles.

Your church has 5000 people and 900 attend on a good day. That reflects 18%.

This church has 70 families (lets assume 4 people per family) so 280 people are members. 18% of 280 = 50.4 people roughly.

So a church which houses 50 people regularly and 280 when in force was offered a 24000 sq ft facility and 20M cash....what would YOUR congregation do if that came along?