Problems with fully automatic AEDs?

[dzmohr]

I would like to get as many opinions as I can about fully automatic AEDs ( no shock button) vs semi-automatic AEDs. I have heard a few reports about even experienced first responders not hearing the shock announcement for various reasons and if they were touching without movement being shocked. Might be an urban legend, but I am told there is an FDA link to such reports...if there is I can not find it even in MedWatch.

This comes up because I have a hospital that is buying some AEDs from me for school application. I can just picture those doing CPR moving up but with knee still against patient or someone touching, or not hearing the announcement over crowd noise...

Any of you have experiences with them? I have used manual defibs for many years and semi automatics ( with shock button) since 10 years but have never had any field experience with the fully automatics. They idea of them in the lay public scares me ( I know a human can still push the button with someone touching, but at least there is a human that claims to have checked and confirms they heard the shock announcement.)

I have a link to the only FDA info I can find on my post here...Link to post with link to FDA docket ...

[Timmy]

They have fully automatic ones?? Maybe they’d be good for people who need to have a defib at there house; its quiet and in a controlled atmosphere. I could only imagine what would happen if a kid arrested at my school! You’d have at least 600 kids rushing over all wanting to get in amongst the action, pushing/shoving and without being in control of the shock it would pose a massive risk of personal injury and hens being unsafe to shock.

I don’t have any experience in fully automatic defibs nor have I heard of a fully automatic one until now…

I think an SAED would be a much better option.

[emt322632]

I agree with Timmy, not having control over something as potentially lethal as electricity scares me, especially if this is going to be used in a PAD program. I would go for the semi-automatic AEDs over the fully automatic, less potential for an accident. Granted the human aspect is still there, but at least then you have someone pushing the button before you shock.

[BushyFromOz]

Urban legend

Full automatic defibrillators will detect the presence of a second person and cancel the shock. In order to accidently get shocked there is a margin of error that is the several one thousandth of a second in which it will not have time to detect and override the shock, which is a much smaller margin for error than an SAED

The reason we fear the FAED is not really because it is dangerous or less safe than an SAED, but because we can control one and not the other.

We have to feel we have control, or it makes us unwary

[Timmy]

Urban legend

Full automatic defibrillators will detect the presence of a second person and cancel the shock. In order to accidently get shocked there is a margin of error that is the several one thousandth of a second in which it will not have time to detect and override the shock, which is a much smaller margin for error than an SAED

The reason we fear the FAED is not really because it is dangerous or less safe than an SAED, but because we can control one and not the other.

We have to feel we have control, or it makes us unwary

Well if this is the case bushy, if I was to work an arrest in amongst 100,000 people what’s to say the machine feels it unsafe to shock because of the amount of 'activity' around the patient but I felt it was safe to shock because I had a crowd control set up? Would my patient die as a result of mechanical error?

Yes I like to feel in control in situations like this, after all were only dealing with peoples lives ay??

[dzmohr]

Urban legend

Full automatic defibrillators will detect the presence of a second person and cancel the shock. In order to accidently get shocked there is a margin of error that is the several one thousandth of a second in which it will not have time to detect and override the shock, which is a much smaller margin for error than an SAED

The reason we fear the FAED is not really because it is dangerous or less safe than an SAED, but because we can control one and not the other.

We have to feel we have control, or it makes us unwary

I honestly do not know the answer to this so I am asking.... I know the pads would sense motion, i.e pt breathing or someone doing CPR ... but if somebody was doing CPR, kneels upright but with knee touching patient, no movement ...how does the machine sense human presence?

[BushyFromOz]

I honestly do not know the answer to this so I am asking.... I know the pads would sense motion, i.e pt breathing or someone doing CPR ... but if somebody was doing CPR, kneels upright but with knee touching patient, no movement ...how does the machine sense human presence?

It will pick up the electrical impulses from the person touching the patient.

Its like that ECG (dont know if youve seen it) that looks like 2 PQRS complexes overlapped and its of 2 children holding hands while 1 is hooked to a monitor.

The same technology is also in SAED's, in case someone touches the patient as you press the shock button

Im told its sensitive enough so that if the patient is laying in a pool of water and you touch the water they are laying in it will also detect you :shock:

[BushyFromOz]

Dont patronise me mate....

Unless some of your 100K people are touching the patient, its not a problem, and if they were, your SAED will refuse to shock anyway

[Richard B the EMT]

What I quote here, I must label as "Urban Legend", as I have no documentation that it really happened.

"I am told that the first "fully automated" defib unit consisted of the actual unit, with a wire to a patch that went to the back, and another wire that ran to a modified Berman style airway, made of an electrically conductive material. I figure that was supposed to take advantage of moisture in the mouth and throat.

"On the first field test, the crew carrying a patient, with the device and appliances activated, were in the middle of a long staircase, when they heard the machine's voice start saying "Stand Clear"!

"I am uncertain, within this narration, as to if the team dropped the patient, ran like heck to the bottom of the stairs, or themselves got shocked."

However, that was when, I am told, the manufacturers all decided to always have a manual firing button, giving that control, after the machine determines a shock is needed, to the machine operator, with all local protocols for both the defib and scene safety being observed.

[Dustdevil]

Before this topic continues, I have to know...

Is anybody even currently selling a full auto defib? Or is this just a theoretical discussion about some dinosaur you found on eBay?

I thought those were completely abandoned when the SAEDs came out.

WTF? :?