Defensive tactics for EMS

[TerrfyinFlyinSrvc]

mamed wrote:

I am a martial artist. I've studied for about 20 years. I also teach martial arts and self-defence.

dt4ems wrote:

You should never just watch a video and think you can do it.... Besides it is all the stuff we do BEFORE the assault takes place. The hands on is IF I SCREWED UP!

And ace and azcep spoke well of you.

Ok, I stand corrected.

I also admit I should have researched further before posting.

It was the original post, the thrust of which it seems I misinterpreted.

Additionally a spate of posts regarding carrying personal weapons, etc on the job on this and other forums sort of set me off.

You guys do raise and do stress the points I was trying to make.

That is that proficiency is defensive tactics requires hands-on personal training and a dedication to practice in order to be effective. The same as any EMS skill we possess. The less often we need it, the more we need to practice it, lest we forget how to do it properly.

Further, none of this is a substitute for scene safety, calling for leo back-up, etc. As you say, if you are using it, something already got screwed up.

And finally, your goal in using these tactics is to be able to get away.

My concern was for someone of the wacker type personality charging into the scene thinking he's Bruce Lee and getting a bunch of people hurt.

I apologize for posting an ill-informed opinion.

Your program is well recommended, and I would take it if ever offered in my area.

See it is responses like that that keep me from posting.

I would certainly hope that is not the case. By posting you corrected my erroneous impression, for which, I thank you.

Be safe,

neal

[DT4EMS]

TerrfyinFlyinSrvc your apology is respected and accepted.

Beleive me I understand about the Bruce Lee mentality. The goal of DT4EMS is to prevent onne person, patient OR provider from being he victim of an assault. I believe there are a lot of cases where an EMS provider crosses the line and does something like put his knee across the throat of an uncooperative drunk..........

Well that's deadly force just because a drunk won't cooperate. It is stuff like that I try to prevent too.

See I believe the training should be a part of every EMT and medic school. Again it isn't martial arts or law enforcment Defensive Tactics. It should be geared toward EMS with EMS and pateint safety in mind.

There has to be a strong line drawn between patient and attacker. An EMS provider should never strike a patient........ but there is a time a provider may have to strike an attacker to escape (I hope that makes sense). See without training a green EMT or Medic may confuse the "Uncooperative drunk" with a drunk who is actually trying to hurt him. Either way the medic could lose.

You must make sure the povider is also trained in the proper way to document and report (to LEO and supervisor) any time they were assaulted or used any type of force.

The defense technique (tactic) is the easy part. It is all of the legal stuff surrounding the "when and why" that gets people in trouble when teaching or learning self-defense.

[EMT-B 55]

each year for the last 24 have gone through training in warding off the bad guy. with out practice they will get you in trouble . use the radio call the police and get the H*** out of Dodge with you partner and patient if possible

[Asysin2leads]

You know, I've had my share of run ins with having to get physical and such, and it does always make me wanna shake my head a little when these threads come up. Someone always mentions O2 therapy, and somehow, that person always thinks they are being very original and funny. In all seriousness, if you hit someone in the head with a D cylinder, you will probably either kill them or give them a serious brain injury, so you'd better be sure before you start swinging.

Someone pulls a knife, someone pulls a gun or a big metal pipe, in short run away. Do whatever you have to, and then get your heiney out of there. If a person actually does pull a gun, your best bet actually is to run, because there is the chance he is actually going to shoot, coupled with the chance he'll actually hit you, coupled with the chance he'll hit something vital.

Add a little soft body armor on top of that, and you have a good chance of getting the heck out of their if you simply leave quickly.

If you do find yourself entangled in a life and death struggle, the key is to fight dirty. Find something soft and squeeze it until it gets softer. Aim for the eyes, the neck, the genitals, and the knees too if you can muster the force. If you see an exposed fleshy part, bite like its a tough piece of steak. Grab a finger and bend it back until you feel a pop, and then keep on bending. This is all what to do simply to extricate yourself, once you are free, RUN AWAY.

[SSG G-man]

We have a couple of things to summon help where I am. The is the little orange "Oh, SH&#" button on the radio. Hit it and you have a hot mike for 10-15 seconds. Transmits your radio identifier also. Over rides all other communications at that time.

Also, when giving your unit number if you add "r" to the end dispatch knows you are in trouble and will send the cavalry.

Also, dispatch checks every 10minutes when you are on scene. No response will get the cavalry rolling, also.

You still have to look out for your self until they get there, but it is nice to know you can summon help relatively easily.

[MadAxe]

If you're really serious about learning some defensive tactics that will actually in a full-on fight, find a school in your area that teaches MMA (mixed martial arts), and will allow you to spar against a non-compliant opponent with some intensity. Most such schools will have a jujitsu base.

I can tell you from first-hand experience that the sort of defensive tactics material advertised by most instructors is of very limited use in the real world. Techniques such as pain-compliance wrist-locks, hip-throws, standing arm-sweeps etc. etc. simply do not work against a determined attacker who is really trying to hurt you. At best they'll allow you to control a mildly intoxicated or confused patient, provided they don't become very aggressive.

Skip anything that doesn't offer a chance to practice hard against a non-compliant opponent who isn't following a script and will punch you in the face (with gloves on) as hard and fast as they can first chance they get, because that's what's going to happen in a real fight. Anything else is worse than useless, because you're going to get hurt trying to execute techniques that just won't work.

[DT4EMS]

I agree nearly 100% with what you said. That is why we have a FIST suit and actually attack the participants. It is definitely different that the huggy-kissy pressure point mentality.

EMS providers have to have more than just "techniques" taught to them. Avoidance, Recognition and Escape must be taught. Not submission or compliance. An EMS provider should never use any defensive tactics against a non-compliant patient.

There is a difference between training in Law Enforcement (Arrest/Control), Martial Arts (Sambo, BJJ, Karate etc) vs 100% escape training.

This is why people get so confused. They think MMA is self-defense. If it was, why are guys like Blauer, Vunak, Cucci etc teaching exclusive MMA techniques? There is a whole different mindset to going to the ground (as a choice) in combat or self-defense. Don't get me wrong, I am just like everyone else who had to change the way we trained since the early 90's. You have to know how to escape the mount, pass the guard etc..... but not to compete.

Remember a fight has to have at least two willing combatants. If the only goal is escape it becomes self-defense.

Is the champ Chuck Liddel a master on the ground? Or does he train to "prevent and escape" the ground game.

What if the person had a knife? What if there was more than one person?

Escape, Escape, Escape........... that has to be the "goal" if you messed up and found yourself on an unsafe scene. If an EMS provider trains 2-4 times a week or more, this is a dead issue provided they follow the law when using their skills.

We "pressure test" all of the stuff we do. That is why you see people going against a simulated attacker wearing the suit. We choke them, throw them down, slam them against a wall etc......... always forcing them to find the "out".

Another point is this:

If you teach people the "progression" of an assault you CAN help them prevent the first strike, slash, push, punch, grab etc. We do this all the time. How many fights start with a tackle? Something usually preceded it. (A push, poke, punch etc.)

So if people can recognize the progression of the attack, they can work to get back to a safe zone. If we train them in submissions, they will enter willingly into something they may regret.

I am not talking about those that train for competition or on a regular basis...... but if we are talking about the average EMS providers they need commonality in their escape training and his has to be legally sound.

[MadAxe]

A FIST suit is useful for overcoming inhibitions about full-power strikes and practicing at actual engagement ranges, but it doesn't really allow for the FUT (f**ked up tangle) that almost always occurs at some point in a fight. Also, it does nothing to condition someone for getting hit themselves. The first time most people eat a punch with little or no protection should be during training, not out on the street.

The key value in with MMA training isn't that it incorporates techniques that are somehow better than those in other systems - the core MMA techniques taught in most schools are in fact very basic. Its just that there is no substitute for the crucible effect that comes from full-out aggressive contact with an opponent who is actively trying to kick your ass.

Don't just take my word for it - look at the differences between these clips. In the first you have some traditional Aikido with some fancy-looking moves against an opponent who is not even trying to fight back. Next some some more nonsense practiced against guys who just stands there and take a beating.

Aikido demonstration

Karate self-defense

Next we have some MMA sparring at moderate intensity. Lastly, a real fight - fast, aggressive and ugly. Did it look anything like either of those first two clips?

MMA Sparring

Actual fight (Warning - violence)

Its not about trying to be the next Ultimate Fighter, and there is of course a world of difference between a sporting competition and an aggressive patient out in the field who is trying to hurt or kill you. But the reality is that MMA has conclusively shown that the vast majority of traditional martial arts and combatives techniques simply will not work against a determined attacker, at least not reliably.

What's the point of learning a technique that only work occasionally at best, or under ideal conditions? If you're going to spend time and money learning protect yourself, study something that's been shown to be successful through a Darwinian selection process. Then take those fundamental techniques and adapt them to the unique EMS environment.

If you're really serious about learning to defend yourself when it counts, train against someone who will punch you in the face or choke you into unconsciousness if you give him the chance. Your best bet to do that safely and effectively is to find a good gym in your area that offers MMA classes and get out there.

If not, then admit that you're not prepared to handle a violent confrontation and act accordingly.

[DT4EMS]

I typed a huge response and got logged off....

I agree people need to get popped in the gym. But I also know EMS provider won't train at all if they were getting punched in the face to get CEU's. In my school where we train combatives every time we meet, in a situation where we are being choked from behind, a knife goes in their thigh, then the groin. ( Tactical Folding Knife).

To pass the guard, we are brutal with eye gouges and groin Strikes. I have to work to feed 5 kids, I didn't enter into a fight willingly so we have to fight to win. When we train j=key locks, we do not let go when the partner taps. Instead we train to stop the forward motion until the situation is safe, but we don't let go.

I don't sing the praises of MMA for EMS self-defense, because the goal of MMA is submission or knock-out. I have knocked people out in real life. I have faced a man armed with a machete, I have fought the crazed freshly released prison dude. So I too can say I believe in what I am teaching.

We do teach ground skills, but for escape, not submission. We can't teach EMS sleepers, when most police officers have had it removed from their Use of Force Continuum. Otherwise we can show them how to kill a man in three moves only to lose their job and go to jail.

We must also draw the line between patient and attacker. Other people don't teach that way, I do.

I say train, I could care less if it is wrestling with your brother in the back yards, but know your laws too.

Think about it a simple tactics like an ear slap can create space for a 105 lb female to get away from a 400 lb man. Would we want to teach her to take him to guard by choice?

EMS self defense must be different. It can't be like police defensive tactics (arrest/control) is has to be only for escape or we are setting them up for failure.

Krav-Maga and FMA are awesome for self-defense too. Keep up training and good luck to you. Stay safe.

MadAxe, if we could get all of EMS to train, in any art, I would be happy.

[DT4EMS]

Here is a PDF of our basic ground drill.

Once they have the drill we introduce a knife or a buddy. We also start with one guy woofing he is armed with a stick or a knife and it's on like Donkey Kong. We do go hard core. Then we take the "principles" and pass them on. Somethings work and some don't. But since the world has seen BJJ and MMA can be devastating, it is easier for me to "testify" ....... "WHY" I had to cut, bite, rip etc to a Jury to explain how brutal the MMA guy could be so I feared for my safety when he placed me in guard. " I though he would choke me to death your Honor". That is why I plunged a knife into his groin or raked his eyes out. SO I don't have to be a great submission artist, but instead be great at defending the choke, the armbar, the triangle etc. Then try to create space to escape.

See it doens't sound right to hear me or any medic talking about injuring someone. If I were in fear of my life, I would and I have in the past.

http://www.dt4ems.net/files/basic_ground_drill.pdf Basic Ground Drill