Trauma Docs with lights and sirens?? What do you think?

[sumozebra]

Ok i don't know where everyone lives, and how your area is. But in Manhattan, traffic gets pretty damn bad, somtimes it'll take like 30 min to go 3 blocks, let alone 20 blocks. Here the municiples / fd / pd / ems / docs are pretty tight with each other. But yeh anyway, why is it so bad that Doc's and other emergency workers have L&S? Not to bash or anything, but say hypothetically, if your wife / child / family member was in an accident, and required immediate neuro surgeory or some speciality surgory, and this just happens to be the manhattan 6pm rush hour where it takes 30 min to go 3 blocks. The surgeon responds to the call, but is stuck in traffic and unable to get through, and having to stop at every red light because he is following the traffic law. During this time, your family member is in critical condition and needs the surgeory within 15 minutes. Because of the lack of lights and sirens, your close one is either dead or permenantly vegitated.

So far majority of the comments i've read have placed an automated assumption that everyone with lights and sirens are egoistical, power hunter, like to show off, drug intoxicated, irrational drivers who don't care about anything else. If any of you have taken an evok class, then you know there are limits and safety restrictions that you must still follow. Just because you have lights and sirens does not mean you can rush red lights without looking, you still have to slow down, look left look right, then proceed. In my opion, it's basically like having a police escort, without the patrol car being infront of you. What difference does it make? so are you saying that the PD or basically no one should have lights and sirens? that's just... wel i won't say, but yeh, my 2 cents

[Ridryder 911]

Yes, actually it has been proven not save very much time if you do drive safe. Do simple mathematics... you would have to double your speed to cut it in half...

Again, if your kid/ loved one was in a Regional Level I Trauma Center, do you really think the extra 15 minutes would matter.. remember you have to allow for "scrub in" time ... etc..

Of course, I am not worried, I really doubt physicians & especially surgeons would become wackers.. they have more professional attitudes. Very seldom you see any markings on that Porsche or Mercedes that identifies them as medical. Strange you don't see stickers, bumper stickers, vanity plates, etc...

R/R 911

[sumozebra]

Yes, actually it has been proven not save very much time if you do drive safe. Do simple mathematics... you would have to double your speed to cut it in half...

Again, if your kid/ loved one was in a Regional Level I Trauma Center, do you really think the extra 15 minutes would matter.. remember you have to allow for "scrub in" time ... etc..

Of course, I am not worried, I really doubt physicians & especially surgeons would become wackers.. they have more professional attitudes. Very seldom you see any markings on that Porsche or Mercedes that identifies them as medical. Strange you don't see stickers, bumper stickers, vanity plates, etc...

R/R 911

Yes u're right in terms of it doesn't save that much time, but there's quite a few cases / times that it was those few extra minutes that made all the difference. and in terms of crazy maniac drivers, yeh i guess we odn't have to worry bout the surgeons / docs being one of those, even with lights and sirens.. porch / ferrari's / bmw's come first, saving lives come second =P

[cfaulknor]

True, it only saves three or four minutes.... but can YOU go that long without oxygen? If you can't, should the patients have to if we can help it?

[Ridryder 911]

True 3-4 minutes is valuable , but if you don't arrive alive .. will it matter ? Again, speeding and endangering at double the speed in a residential or even high volume traffic .. how many lives are you jeopardizing other than your own ?

R/R 911

[n5iln]

True 3-4 minutes is valuable , but if you don't arrive alive .. will it matter ? Again, speeding and endangering at double the speed in a residential or even high volume traffic .. how many lives are you jeopardizing other than your own?

Absolutely. As my EVO instructor was fond of saying (often!), "it does absolutely no good to get most of the way there quickly."

[sumozebra]

True 3-4 minutes is valuable , but if you don't arrive alive .. will it matter ? Again, speeding and endangering at double the speed in a residential or even high volume traffic .. how many lives are you jeopardizing other than your own ?

R/R 911

As i said, you use lights and sirens with due regards of safety. there IS a reason why there's the EVOK class you know? And yet again, i'm sure i've said it quite a few times, not everyone who has lights and sirens are morons who want to drive fast. There's those who just drive fast for the sake of it, and those who do it with a purpose, and knowing that purpose and the neccessity of getting there quickly as well as safely.

"how many lives are you jeopardizing other than your own ?" answer is None. Before you rush the red, you look left, you look right, you see it's clear, then you go. so i mean SERIOUSLY, before anyone starts bashing bout lights and sirens even more, please think about this topic from ALL perspectives, and not just YOUR perspective

also, for the person who said "True, it only saves three or four minutes.... but can YOU go that long without oxygen? If you can't, should the patients have to if we can help it?" you are one wise man, and i salute thee

[Ridryder 911]

Wow.. a lot of wisdom form one whom does not work in the system yet. Let me show some facts :

"During 1991--2000, the most recent year for which data were available, 300 fatal crashes occurred involving occupied ambulances, resulting in the deaths of 82 ambulance occupants and 275 occupants of other vehicles and pedestrians"

EMS personnel in the United States have an estimated fatality rate of 12.7 per 100,000 workers, more than twice the national average . This report documents 27 ambulance crash-related fatalities among EMS workers over a 10-year period

site reference : http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5208a3.htm

And it is on the rise..

Do you not think these EVO had not been through any EVOC class.. as a EVOC instructor, I can assure I am quite aware of the dangers as well. Now, show me the statistics that demonstrate that an additional 3 minutes would had truthfully made the difference in outcome versus response times.

Again, we should look at shaving off times by decreasing dispatching time, proper dispatch, medical dispatching, and best route for peak times etc.. instead and in lieu of "running hot".. I am sure there is 3 minutes we could improve upon. The same on trauma alert to the Trauma Center.. this would give approx 10 15 minutes that would allow ample time for the physician to respond.

Again... think outside the box..

Like I have asked before, how many would be in EMS if you could not use L & S ?...

R/R 911

[AnthonyM83]

Yes, actually it has been proven not save very much time if you do drive safe. Do simple mathematics... you would have to double your speed to cut it in half...

From what I've heard it's been said that average response times aren't that much faster with L/S. AVERAGE is the keyword.

I think people might be imagining doing 90 in a 65... instead think rush hour and being able to do 45 in the left shoulder lane of the freeway while everyone else goes at 0-15MPH. In rural areas with low traffic, L/S might not do much because on a road without traffic your L/S speed and your regular speed might not be much different...you might mainly save time skipping a red light rotation or two and maybe going a little faster than other traffic.

Also, POV driving would be different. Intersections would need to cleared a bit more carefully, because your car doesn't stand out as much and maybe you don't have a siren, just the light...stuff like that.

[Ace844]

Hi All,

Here's a link to a previous discussion here with alot of study and literature on this topic.

Warning Lights @ Sirens use in EMS

Please read it all, then comment.... 8)

Allowing MD's, 'Rescue Randy's, Wannabe's," and anyone else to respond on their own in a POV is fraught with litigous risk. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be the only one left standing when the music stops... :shock: :roll:

Hope this helps,

ACE844

Reality continues to ruin my life.

-- Calvin

Tommy Gavin: The harder I work, the luckier I goddamned get.

A veteran Paramedic says to his most frequent patient, whose complaint is ...yet again..trivial at best::"Well you see, it seems that in regards to your illness(ie:today's), ....hmmm...well...how can I say this?? You see, It's like this, Orthodox medicine has not yet found an answer to your complaint. Although these Alien death rays can be quite powerful and confusing as you have found out first hand. There may yet be a solution to help you combat them in the future...However, luckily for you, I happen to be a quack, and you happen to be crazy!! Ohhh, but you still think you need to see a doc, eh!??!?! Well, why didn't ya say so then, let's go, GOT SHOES!!