IAFF at it again....

[aussiephil]

(posting removed by Richard

Its OK to call them retards Richard, really, it is.

Just another example of these retards trying to build their empire & stack the decks in their favour. When will people realise that this is just a big masterbation session.

Maybe, as a thought, we should tell all the FF's that they now have to run ALL EMS. Then sit back, watch them stuff it up, & have it taken off them again. Just a thought.

[Kiwiology]

I am sure there is more than just "squirt wet stuff on red stuff" but coming from a family of firefighters I am well aware the Fire Service is a highly skill based profession that does not require volumous amounts of knowledge.

The same cannot be said for prehospital medicine.

Somehow it gets lost in translation.

[HERBIE1]

The IAFF is a labor organization. As all such unions do, they are positioning themselves politically to their own benefit. By positioning themselves with representatives on the CoAEMSP, they can ensure enough votes to pass the rules they want, and admit friendly organizations. They say as much in their resolution. Hopefully CoAEMSP sees it for what it is. I think they should be represented, as it would help to know what their reaction will be to proposed changes in training, but to give them 2 votes only gives them additional voting power, and does not serve the CoAEMSP or EMS in any way.

One of the IAFF chapters I deal with argues every time there is a change in protocol. 12 lead EKG? Now we're doing more, so you have to pay us more. They take this same approach to every advancement in prehospital care. Fortunately the other chapters I deal with are not like this. Many are quite progressive and embrace more advanced protocols. It just depends on who the rep is and the culture of that organization. Most, in fact near all, of our EMS around here is fire based. There is wide variation in how they look at EMS and the responsibilities of their firefighters.

'zilla

Doc-

The problem with the IAFF is that in too many cases, it's about 150 years of tradition, unimpeded by progress. Yes, primarily it is a union, but it is also a huge lobbyist that has a lot of clout locally, as well as in Congress. Change is always difficult for any organization, but as you know, medicine is constantly evolving, so change is the "norm" for us. The very reasons why the fire service is good at what it does make it inherently resistant to change. Traditions run deep, and often times, things are done "because we always do things this way". I recall the old timers complaining about using things like SCBA's, hoods, forcing them to have rehab breaks, changing fireground tactics to make them safer, etc. Clearly the changes were for their own health, safety, and longevity, but too often it's not about logic. The organizational culture of a group like the fire service makes it very difficult to accept outside interference, and when they need to cede control to you- or anyone else- because medicine is not their strong suit, they often fight back. Like most groups, they need to know what's in it for them.

The profession as a whole is also essentially self regulated. When was the last time you heard of a firefighter losing their job because of how they ventilated a roof, or how they directed a fire attack plan? In medicine, we have protocols that we follow, and layers of regulations, rules, and administration we must abide by. We have lawyers, medical control, state agencies, and other watchdog groups more than willing to point out if and when we make a mistake or deviate from a standard of care.

Yes, in some areas, the fire service is very progressive and proactive in looking for the best possible solutions to provide public safety, care, and protection. But, ask almost anyone who works EMS in a large urban area. Chances are they know first hand the difficulties caused by the IAFF.

[The Rogue Supervisor]

I am sure there is more than just "squirt wet stuff on red stuff" but coming from a family of firefighters I am well aware the Fire Service is a highly skill based profession that does not require volumous amounts of knowledge.

The same cannot be said for prehospital medicine.

Somehow it gets lost in translation.

REALLY? How much knowledge do you think it takes to accurately assess and treat a patient in extremis? As opposed to pouring water onto a fire? Different set of skills, different set of requirements. I have no desire to be a FF, nor try to tell them how to do their jobs. I little courtesy and respect back would go a long way. For a fire organization to think they know ANYTHING about medical care is equivalent to a doctor (nurse, paramedic, EMT, what-have-you) thinking they know anything about putting water on a fire.

The issue isn't whether FFs should be providing medical care. Some do, and do it very well. Usually, because that's actually their focus. The issue is the fire service as a whole thinking they know better and/or more than the people who actually DO provide patient care. AND they expect to get even more money for trying to do a job they shouldn't be.

[HERBIE1]

REALLY? How much knowledge do you think it takes to accurately assess and treat a patient in extremis? As opposed to pouring water onto a fire? Different set of skills, different set of requirements. I have no desire to be a FF, nor try to tell them how to do their jobs. I little courtesy and respect back would go a long way. For a fire organization to think they know ANYTHING about medical care is equivalent to a doctor (nurse, paramedic, EMT, what-have-you) thinking they know anything about putting water on a fire.

The issue isn't whether FFs should be providing medical care. Some do, and do it very well. Usually, because that's actually their focus. The issue is the fire service as a whole thinking they know better and/or more than the people who actually DO provide patient care. AND they expect to get even more money for trying to do a job they shouldn't be.

First, welcome to the city.

Second, the mutual respect thing is a problem when you have a fire department who grudgingly is forced to accept EMS into it's organization. The powers that be may understand(but still are not happy about) that often times, EMS is the only thing that stands between them and cuts to their budget, manning, and the closure of fire houses. Few in the rank and file see the big picture, and when they are forced to adopt EMS as part of their duties, many are not happy about it and openly express their hostility. Not a pleasant situation for someone in EMS to deal with. The respect is a 2 way street, but when the dominant entity feels they have been forced to do something they did not sign up for, they generally make their feelings known.

EMS and fire suppression are 2 separate entities, but a good organization that has both trains their people to wear each hat, using whichever one is appropriate. Unfortunately for the hard core firemen, the EMS hat is much bigger these days.

[Richard B the EMT]

Its OK to call them retards Richard, really, it is.

Please don't put words in my mouth, thank you.

I posted something that made me, in my own eyes, seem like some kind of fool, and removed it a minute later, as not to be offensive to either the EMS or Fire Fighting side of the FDNY, my employer. Better thought of as a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Besides, while after the merger of EMS into the FDNY, sometimes relations can still get tenuous, even after 14 years, and I am from the first EMS/FF "Combined House" in NYC (Eng 265, Tower Ladder 121, Battalion Chief 47, EMS supervisor "Conditions 47", BLS 47Adam, 47Boy 47Charlie, 47David, 64Adam, Paramedic 47Willie, and Paramedic Haz-Tec 47Zebra).

[aussiephil]

Richard, if I caused offense, I offer my humblest apologies, it was not my intention.

Put simply, fighting fires, as we are so often reminded, is a profession. As such, FF's demand respect. Respect from all, especially EMS.

EMS is also a profession, albeit one in many cases in need of reform. Reform in education. Reform in the way it is managed & run.

To see the IAFF want to take MORE control in all these areas, IMHO, shows complete disdain for EMS as a profession. For EMS to move forward, there firstly needs to be a complete disassociation from fire, to recognize the independence of both professions. There needs to be a national steering committee to address the skill levels within EMS with a view to upskilling everyone & abolishing EMT-B as we know it today for all but vollies or CFR's.

This will never happen if fire control the powers that be.

Again Richard please accept my deepest apologies as I don't want to have my comments seen as attributed to you.

[Kiwiology]

We have enough problems with Paramedics being recognised as legitimate professionals here thanks to the Johnnos, I hate to think what would happen if the Fire Unions got involved.

Phil, when are you getting ordained mate?

[aussiephil]

We have enough problems with Paramedics being recognised as legitimate professionals here thanks to the Johnnos, I hate to think what would happen if the Fire Unions got involved.

Phil, when are you getting ordained mate?

Too much responsibility for that crap. Although now we have the Reverend Doctor Turnip.........

[tniuqs]

Too much responsibility for that crap. Although now we have the Reverend Doctor Turnip.........

Bless you brother Phil we will forgive thee.

The path of the righteous EMT/Paramedic is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil Hose Monkey Unions. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness.(and budget cutbacks) For he is truly his brother's keeper and the Saviour of ill children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers and sisters of the EMS cloth. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you !

nuff said ?

A modern day fable to follow with my next sermon, I will be expecting Phil to be in the first row of pews

cheers

Edited August 14, 2010 by tniuqs