Saved by the bell ?

[tniuqs]

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/12/07/saved-by-the-bell/

Good Grief IAFF at it again.

[HERBIE1]

I like the responses from the firefighters when asked about performing medical duties:

"Of the 37 firefighters Braedley interviewed, “all but four expressed sentiments ranging from discomfort to outright rejection of their work in the health care provision,”

Sounds like the perfect group of people to be tasked with doing EMS. Obviously Canada is no different than the US in this issue.

[46Young]

I'm confused - I've read several posts by Canadians that state their country has completely seperate fire and EMS.

Anyway, those FF's have a valid point. When they joined the fire service EMS wasn't in their job description. There's an easy solution to that. Grandfather in those employees so they aren't required to do EMS, and only have certain apparatus respond to EMS jobs. Require new hires to have either their EMT or medic, depending on the job type (FF vs firemedic). Canada requires their medics to hold degrees, so one would think that these firemedics would be more serious about the medical side when compared to American firemedics who just use the cert to get the job, as some would say.

If EMS would deploy the proper amount of units, not relying heavily on forced OT, rather than nickle and dime by running the bare minimum (like SSM and such) there wouldn't be a need for fire to provide coverage when EMS txp units are spread thin.

[Kiwiology]

Canada all but runs third-service EMS, I know Winnipeg and one or two others have Firefighter/Paramedics. Remember also the education in Canada is much, much, much higher than in the US. Any use of Firefighters above an EMR/First Responder level in Canada except in the few departments mentioned would (I strongly suspect) invoke some sort of revolution.

NZ Fire Rescue is the same, fire and EMS are totally separate except for a first response capacity.

Fire should stay fire/rescue and EMS should stick to medical.

[tniuqs]

'46Young'

I'm confused - I've read several posts by Canadians that state their country has completely seperate fire and EMS.

Most correct you are confused, I could go on for a huge post and waste everyones reading time, it is rather complex situation because Canada Health Act is federal and handing down "guideline's" for Health and then the Province(s) then interprets this and decides who and the whats. In Alberta for example although now under a "Health Care Wing" just fresh I may add, there is still a blend of services from Fire based, Municiple Base, Hospital Base, Private and Industrial, very very few Volunteer btw.

Anyway, those FF's have a valid point. When they joined the fire service EMS wasn't in their job description. There's an easy solution to that. Grandfather in those employees so they aren't required to do EMS, and only have certain apparatus respond to EMS jobs.

I must disagree: Grandfather OUT the FF out that refuse to upgrade training to EMR (minimum) ~ = EMT-B but as a matter of intelligent response to the changing requirement for the demographic's and call volume it goes without saying really that ALL FF have this minimum standard and they can pay for it themselves just like the rest of we EMS peons. Akin to a LEO not carrying a gun if you can see the analogy.

Require new hires to have either their EMT or medic, depending on the job type (FF vs firemedic). Canada requires their medics to hold degrees, so one would think that these firemedics would be more serious about the medical side when compared to American firemedics who just use the cert to get the job, as some would say.

Ok wrong again we in Canada we call your associates degree ~ a Diploma from a recognized Canadian Medical Association program, presently the only Bachelor Degree is business and there is to the best of my knowledge no Bachelor of Sciences. That said there are many Advanced Care Paramedics with Science degrees but most RN or RRT based.

kiwimedic

Canada all but runs third-service EMS, I know Winnipeg and one or two others have Firefighter/Paramedics.

Please note: "Jeff B" comments in the news post comments Winnipeg Fire Dept did a political takeover and then chopped the EMS budget. Honestly there is so much animosity in Winterpeg one could cut it with a snow knife !

Ok here is where the lines get really really fuzzy .. in British Columbia and Manitoba the "Primary Care Paramedic" (EMT-I) (in most cases used by government to misguide the public into believing they are receiving care that they are NOT) Very seriously on the very wide streets of Winnipeg there are very few ACP as in B.C. As opposed to Alberta where by per Capita the number of ALS service's far exceed those in other provinces, Ontario has many ACP but they are typically located in major metropolitan areas ONLY.

In Quebec we have no idea with all the spy talk, last I heard (or understood) their are trained A.C.P. but not permitted to do many of the skills that the rest of the country has been doing for over 20 years in ALS ... go figure EH?

cheers

Edited December 8, 2009 by tniuqs

[Kiwiology]

Ok here is where the lines get really really fuzzy .. in British Columbia and Manitoba the "Primary Care Paramedic" (EMT-I) (in most cases used by government to misguide the public into believing they are receiving care that they are NOT)

That is exactly why I am against using the term "Paramedic" for all levels eg PCP/ICP/ACP as it is misleading to the public. New Zealand has recently adopted "Ambulance Technician" (BLS), "Paramedic" (ILS) and "Intensive Care Paramedic" (ALS) and while our BLS scope is very progressive and quite good it still doesn't include things like IV fluids or parenteral medication so I don't think "Paramedic" or "Primary Care Paramedic" or whatever spin you want to put infront or behind "Paramedic" is appropriate!

In Quebec we have no idea with all the spy talk, last I heard (or understood) their are trained A.C.P. but not permitted to do many of the skills that the rest of the country has been doing for over 20 years in ALS ... go figure EH?

Last I heard Quebec didn't have ACPs and ran the French SAMU/SMUR model of prehospital physician backup. Imagine Quebec doing some French, I am shocked!

[tniuqs]

'kiwimedic'

That is exactly why I am against using the term "Paramedic" for all levels eg PCP/ICP/ACP as it is misleading to the public.

You TOO ? just think if FIRE/EMR should be called "PRIMITIVE LIFE SUPPORT PARAMEDIC/FF" one might just as well move to Nigeria

This was a huge Canadian EMS political error "retrospective" I am doing my best to thwart Alberta doing anything other than REMT and REMT-Paramedic titles although thats presently in the new Government proposed BILL 60 ...(title consolidation) sheesh just an excuse to put PARAMEDIC on every gut wagon ONLY and down grade care to misguide the public/ taxpayers.

Last I heard Quebec didn't have ACPs and ran the French SAMU/SMUR model of prehospital physician backup. Imagine Quebec doing some French, I am shocked!

Honestly if Quebec wants to separate from the rest of CANADA, then I would be most pleased to give them ALL the heave ho, and stop putting spy talk on all the damn signs and cereal boxes too.

ps Ink and Paper were saved with this electronic note no French was used to waste trees or be politically correct, mind you many electrons were very inconvenienced !

cheers

[Kiwiology]

You TOO ? just think if FIRE/EMR should be called "PRIMITIVE LIFE SUPPORT PARAMEDIC/FF" one might just as well move to Nigeria

This was a huge Canadian EMS political error "retrospective" I am doing my best to thwart Alberta doing anything other than REMT and REMT-Paramedic titles although thats presently in the new Government proposed BILL 60 ...(title consolidation) sheesh just an excuse to put PARAMEDIC on every gut wagon ONLY and down grade care to misguide the public/ taxpayers.

You know I didn't really like the term "Intensive Care Paramedic" when it came out we used to have "Advanced Paramedics" and I much preferred it as it was less wordy and more aligned with "advanced life support" but the more I think of it the more sense it makes. I mean if I said "hey my buddy is in 'advanced care'" people would look at me funny but if I say "intensive care" there is a clear distinction that he must be pretty sick.

I think "first responder" is appropriate our sort-of pre-BLS level (what I coined 'limited life support' remembering that BLS here is a lot more advanced than the US) is called "First Responder". I think in the more progressive systems (like Australia) using the terms "Paramedic" and either "Intensive Care Paramedic" is appropriate and as I understand Alberta has EMR/EMT/EMT-P and as I understand EMT in Alberta allows IV fluid, IV medication and 3 lead ECG interpretation so "Paramedic" would be appropriate for this level..

Perhaps I am mistaken but I think Canada has all but abolished ILS level (except maybe New Brunwsick or something, but honestly, when is the last time you heard anybody mention New Brunswick when you were in the grocery line or at the pub? ... hey man guess what New Brunswick did! .... mm yeah just not seeing it) so again I'm not sure how to get around this problem. "Paramedic" for ILS level works well here and "Ambulance Technician" is a good separator as it really drives home the distinction between BLS and ILS/ALS as much as I HATE the term and would much prefer "Ambulance Officer".

At the end of the day is this simply a problem we are creating in our head because we've become so used to "Paramedic" or does the public really care or understand the difference, I'd say no and eh ... maybe.

Honestly if Quebec wants to separate from the rest of CANADA, then I would be most pleased to give them ALL the heave ho, and stop putting spy talk on all the damn signs and cereal boxes too.

ps Ink and Paper were saved with this electronic note no French was used to waste trees or be politically correct, mind you many electrons were very inconvenienced !

cheers

LMFAO

Edited December 8, 2009 by kiwimedic

[tniuqs]

Whao my southern hemispheric mate:

ILS = Intermediate Life Support in my neighbors to the left (looking south) in Saskatchewan.

end of the day:

Firemen = Firemen

Medics = Medics

Mix em up all you get is trouble.

[Richard B the EMT]

New Zealand has recently adopted "Ambulance Technician" (BLS), "Paramedic" (ILS) and "Intensive Care Paramedic" (ALS)

OK, I'm trying for a qualification, here: The reference used here, of ILS? Can I infer translation of that to be "Intermediate" Life Support?

It's been a while since I went on this rant, but feel I must do so again: Different areas around the world do not always use what any individual here might, and incorrectly so, consider to be a universal "alphabet soup". Is the initials ILS meaning Intermediate Life Support, or Instrument Landing System? Please, don't use initials unless you translate later on in the sentence.

We now return to the string.