This video shows you how to get fired from your EMS job

[DwayneEMTP]

pguy280, and the others that I listed previously. I am not attacking your opinion about the video...

Hell letmesleep, not only do I expect you to attack my opinion but I can't think if a single good reason to come here if you're unwilling to do so.

I can see you were stirred up by my post. Good on you. It was my intention to be clear about how I felt, and I was pissed, but if those feelings are in error for some reason you do me no favors by allowing me to continue to be wrong.

Though I can see your points, sort of, my question for you is this; Do you find it acceptable that a medical professional stands by while an altered, non violent pt wanders/falls around unaided? If that had been you in the video, is that a call you would be proud to show to your family? Your teachers? Your medical director?

Speaking for myself...If I ever get to the point where I am comfortable watching a damaged person run into the street and/or fall multiple times on their face, I hope the EMS Gods fly down from the heavens, tear up my medic ticket and spit it back into my face.

We are tasked, within certain limits, with caring for those that can't care for themselves. Many of those people will need to be saved from situations that they created on their own. That's the gig man...If you don't do it because it's the right thing to do, then do it simply because it's what you get paid for...

I am however questioning your judgement about your fellow posters in regards to not seeing the ethical issues here.

I think, though I don't have time right now to reread the thread, that my comment was addressing the idea that this video didn't belong in an ethics discussion. It seems I was clear on that, but if you still don't know where I'm coming from I'll readdress it...

My point was being made about the issue that previous posters (myself and others) were found to be appalling by those I listed. I still don't understand where, who, why, or how there was any concern with the ethics of these EMS providers.

These providers chose to be on the scene that involved an altered pt.

Do you feel that there is a moral obligation to protect that pt?

Do you feel that there is an ethical obligation to be this pt's advocate?

I look forward to your thoughts....

Dwayne

[DwayneEMTP]

Many PDs require ETOH persons to be transported to a hospital because of liability concerns.

I saw nothing but good handling of another skell.

I take that back, only the cop had on skell gloves.

Getting pissed off, chasing the skell around the bus will not look good at all.

Especially in the ghetto.

Another shining example of why EMS is, and probably will remain, a Good Ol Boys club for yahoos and wackers.

If you see nothing but a 'skell', and no options other than 'getting pissed off' or 'chasing him around the bus' then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Time to grow up a bit. And if that's the attitude you leaned from your recently graduated medic school you need to demand a refund...you got screwed.

Dwayne

[letmesleep]

Dwayne, some absolutely good points that do make me stop and re-question this discussion. Based off of the video, the officer had the Pt and was escorting him to the side door of the second truck when he pulled away (with very little resistance, might I add), and began running around the unit. I don't feel as if any of them could have really reacted much differently before he bounced off of the first trucks back doors, however they did glove or reglove to help him as quickly as possible. I will admit that he did repeatedly bounce his head on the pavement before somebody (the original provider) grabbed him to assist. As an outsider from this scene it does appear that there was not a lot of "help" prior to sitting him on the curb by EMS, but we still don't know what occurred prior to the second truck arriving on scene. What I am trying to explain is that given the time frame of the video, This Pt was being escorted/ he pulled away from the cop/ he bounced off the ambulance/ then was picked back up and taken to the second ambulance. Would I be happy if this had accrued on a scene of mine, NO. It just doesn't appear that any of them could have reacted any differently or faster then they had.

I totally agree with you that much of what we do is "picking up the pieces" of our Pts. We do save people from their own hand so to speak, everything from self induced intoxication to simple eating crap and not exercising. This Pt is one of those cases and I think that is clear to anyone of us with, as I said before, two working brain cells. I will state as well that as much as I seem to be defending this crew to a certain extent, I can not say that I find the humor in this situation as they did (note the end of the video).

I may have misunderstood what I read in your post Dwayne, but I believe you stated that this is a good video for ethics discussion

Quote:

And I'll guarantee that any of you that can't see the ethics lessons in this video have never had an ethics class. Ethics is all about "what if", "why?", "Why not?" etc....it certainly is a valuable video for that.

If I'm wrong I will apologize, but with that said, how? Although I can see learning tools within the video, I don't understand how ethics come in to play here due to the time factor.

To answer your two questions:

1) yes, since they took it upon themselves to take on a second Pt, they have a moral obligation to protect him, but is he in jeopardy with the officer? Speaking for myself, I always escort my Pts to the ambulance.....yes always. I stay with my Pt at all times once I am committed to them which is something I have done since day one of my medic career, this is something I picked up while attending Bob Pages multi-lead class. I can also tell you that had I been on this scene I would have tried to pick this Pt up bare handed when he was bouncing off the ground, but that is me. Is it wrong, with all the pounding in to the heads of the newer generation of providers to put his gloves on before he touches this Pt, unless we interview this medic to know what his reason behind this is (disease or because he is poor) we will never know.

Let me also state that if it is because of this mans race or financial status....I'll be the first to step up and fry his ass!!

2)Absolutely, once you have committed yourself to a Pt, you are their advocate, and it is up to you to handle their needs medically, socially, emotionally, yada yada (relax I did that to mess with ya Dwayne). We have an obligation to help, protect, fight for all of our Pts with no option to pick and choose. Again tho, we don't know this particular medic, and what makes him tick.

So where do we go from here? This is an unfortunate situation for the Pt, the cop, and the EMS crews, but what could they have done differently? How could they have reacted faster? We can sit here and pick them apart all day long, but what did they really do wrong here? Not strap this guy down to stretcher?

[HARDCORE CAP]

looking at the video, the only thing that i can see really wrong is just not using the stretcher in the first place so the pt doesn't run off like that

[emtlady76877]

I had a run one time where the man was arrested for dwi, and while they were booking him in jail he started more & more like a diabetic even though he had been caught drinking. So, we transported him to the hospital. Where we were informed that he was both ETOH and hyopogylcmic; due to him not eating and drinking alot his blood sugar had went hugh then bottomed out. So, ETOH runs can turn into something else.

[Dustdevil]

looking at the video, the only thing that i can see really wrong is just not using the stretcher in the first place so the pt doesn't run off like that

Yeah, because none of us have ever had a patient jump off of our cot before.

[HARDCORE CAP]

Yeah, because none of us have ever had a patient jump off of our cot before.

i'm a super newb so that hasn't happened yet

[Dustdevil]

Yeah, trust me... a ground level fall is a lot less benign than a pavement dive from an elevated cot. If he falls while stumbling, that's his fault. If he falls from your cot, even if it is his fault, it's your fault.

[jsadin]

Dust speaks the truth. Once you secure that patient to the stretcher, you own 'em....

[HARDCORE CAP]

so in that situation it'd probably be best to escort the patient to the truck then put them in the gurney while in the vehicle?