Hiring practices in EMS ... the NEW trend?

[tniuqs]

Ok have you ever heard of this situation ?

Senario Background: A small (stationed close to hospital) serving an urbal populaton base of ~ 50 thousand, with a large rural service area, which reciently has lost 8 staff to other services, possibly due to major sized communities hiring.

Vast majority of employees have only worked for this service exclusively, majority of employess under the age of 28 y/o.

One main hall with 3 units, one sattelite station, 35 minutes away, ALS: 1 Paramedic 1 EMT per truck, ground only.

A privately owned service with only one manager that has been the manager since the operation was taken over from a previous private contractor, manager was ex employee, and is doing a degree level course in Biz Admin possibly working on a Thesis?

No union representation perhaps suggesting that very little job security, I digress.

So the "ride/along" for 10 hour shift / interview process begins like this :

Upon arrival candidate is informed that all levels of education EMTs and Paramedics have equal wieght in deciding if the potential employee will quote "FIT IN" no information on the math in a so called vote.

This premise discussed in the 10 minutes before the interview : (candidate is asked to check go out a unit) That "getting" along with the group was a huge priority, later the topic was breached but candidate regarding chain of command, and criteria for the daily "team Leader" also discussed later was the progressive development of a service and excellence in patient, these did not seem to be an issue for the group, were too busy watching TV. That said: TNK admin was in the guidelines but no one had administerd it in the field to that date.

Within 10 minutes the "entire group" of employees, that's 6 crews sit down at table (am. change over) and they all have the opportunity to review the resume you have submitted. You have not been asked for your permission to share and unknowing that prior to this group interview that ALL would have access to all the information you have provided in confidence to the employer.

Then a round table "free for all" for all employees to ask questions from the questions very little experiance of the employees in the interview process, itself. Big issue was conflict resolution when a EMT wants to do a procedure that they were familliar ie apply LSB straps.

Only one question asked by the manager a typical "medical direction contraversy" ie MD recieving firmly refuses to have a Pre-Arrest patient intubated .... the typical "no win senario" the what's best for the patient objective, and the political dance.

Senario: The applicant is 20 years older than the average group member with vast field experiance, ground, flight and a degree level program that in an associated health care field and much Hospital experiance in Intensive Care Units.

So the I raise these question's:

1- Should hiring practice's be based on this group "Social Interview" to "Fit In" ?

2- Or the traditional proven field experiance and reputation for excellence in Patient Care? (ps: no letters of recommendation nor commendations requested by manager.)

3- Could age discrimination become an concern if a candidate be unsuccessful ?

(Perhaps legal action be contemplated based on this percieved discrimination ?)

4-Could a breach of personal information become an issue if a candidate be unsuccessful ? (Again perhaps legal action in regard to freedom of information / personal privacy investigations with government entities involved ? )

5- OR is it best to walk away from this 'Click's' type hiring practices ?

All Input(s) Welcome ..... PLEASE.

[spenac]

I think you should include your people in the process. I have to work with the new hire, the manager probably will not. I should have a say in who I have to trust with my life.

[JPINFV]

So the I raise these question's:

1- Should hiring practice's be based on this group "Social Interview" to "Fit In" ?

I can see the utility of this if the company is small (6 crews=12 people). This isn't your standard 9-5 job where you can sit in your cubicle/office and stay away from the people who annoy you. You have to be able to get along with the people who you will essentially be living with when on duty. I can see where there is a valid concern that one provider would ruin the kumbaya of the company. Similarly, no one wants to be that one guy (you know whom I'm talking about, just about every service has one) who no one wants to work with.

2- Or the traditional proven field experiance and reputation for excellence in Patient Care? (ps: no letters of recommendation nor commendations requested by manager.)

I don't view having a social and experience component as being mutually exclusive. I also don't get why they wouldn't ask for those things, even if they were optional.

3- Could age discrimination become an concern if a candidate be unsuccessful ?

(Perhaps legal action be contemplated based on this percieved discrimination ?)

Better question. If you wouldn't fit in with them, would you want to work there anyways? Are there other services that you can apply to?

4-Could a breach of personal information become an issue if a candidate be unsuccessful ? (Again perhaps legal action in regard to freedom of information / personal privacy investigations with government entities involved ? )

5- OR is it best to walk away from this 'Click's' type hiring practices ?

All Input(s) Welcome ..... PLEASE.

I'm not familiar enough with privacy laws to say if it's a violation or not. Similarly, I can see why you would want to avoid companies that hire, in whole or in part, based on cliques. I don't see why, though, that would be an automatic disqualifies. I could argue that hiring based on the majority view of a good EMT (B, P, between) on this board, that it would be cliquish as well.

[tniuqs]

I think you should include your people in the process. I have to work with the new hire, the manager probably will not. I should have a say in who I have to trust with my life.

Safety... most excellent point oh great one ! I kinda forgot about that little issue ...

I do agree: A Drivers abstract was presented to the Manager with a > 20 year 'TOTALLY CLEAN" record with no moving violations, ever, BUT not never discussed during interview.

Hand me down balistic vests provided only 2 members wearing them, just FYI, and after doczillas input on that thread ... I did look for labels ... they were so old the label was washed blank.

cheers thanks a good point.

[paramedicmike]

So the I raise these question's:

1- Should hiring practice's be based on this group "Social Interview" to "Fit In" ?

Based on meeting with the *entire* shift? No. However, I have done interviews (both as a crew member and as the interviewee) in a similar situation. It was just one crew meeting with the potential hire. One of the crew members was the boss. The shift was by invitation only and generally people don't realize that it's part of the interview process. It allows for a more relaxed interaction with the potential hire as s/he doesn't feel the same pressure as may be felt during a known interview.

This actually worked pretty well and is a current practice at my FT gig.

2- Or the traditional proven field experiance and reputation for excellence in Patient Care? (ps: no letters of recommendation nor commendations requested by manager.)

Proven and demonstrated experience shouldn't be negated in such a situation.

3- Could age discrimination become an concern if a candidate be unsuccessful ?

(Perhaps legal action be contemplated based on this percieved discrimination ?)

I'm not sure where age discrimination would come into play. Yes, the potential hire is older than most everyone else. Were there signs that perhaps the candidate's age would cause problems?

Another question to ask would be if the candidate, with the extra years behind him, would be able to work with the younger staff. Perhaps this would best be asked internally by the candidate.

4-Could a breach of personal information become an issue if a candidate be unsuccessful ? (Again perhaps legal action in regard to freedom of information / personal privacy investigations with government entities involved ? )

Does this go back to the resume issue? I'm not sure what you're putting on your resume but really, unless there's false information I don't really see the big deal of people seeing it. Now, if you're including an application as part of the resume (including such things like a tax ID, social security or other potentially ID theft information) then I could see the problem. If it's just a standard resume (name, contact info, experience and education) then what's the big deal?

Taken as a whole, it might be wise, though, to determine if such availability is standard practice. If so, run!

5- OR is it best to walk away from this 'Click's' type hiring practices ?

You're hearing warning bells for a reason. If it doesn't feel right then it's not and you wouldn't be wrong to walk away.

Let us know how it turns out.

-be safe

[tniuqs]

Does this go back to the resume issue? I'm not sure what you're putting on your resume but really, unless there's false information I don't really see the big deal of people seeing it. Now, if you're including an application as part of the resume (including such things like a tax ID, social security or other potentially ID theft information) then I could see the problem. If it's just a standard resume (name, contact info, experience and education) then what's the big deal?

Complete work history, personal and professional goals, past employers, address, marital status, contact #s the works.

NO information that can not be easily be substantiated as that would be just stupidness on a resume!

But not even name tags worn by the staff ? Yet intros to > 10 ppl @ start of interview, no designations worn as to who was EMT or Paramedic, quite "atypical" of most service's.

[MedicTroll]

[/font:b883311e88] The first thought that comes to my mind is Why? Any of us who have been in this field for any time have applied and interviewed with many services. Some good and some that scared the heck out of us, but you take it for what it is and move on. You didn't like it, then don't take the job and move on and stop whining on the internet about the company and seeking support of strangers to not take the job. I own an EMS company and I don't interview like most companies in this area as well. In fact I don't interview in an office or at the station, 90% of the time I interview at a coffee house. Personally I think it is more relaxing for everyone. But a second interview is conducted at the station and other staff members are a part of it, mainely for the reasons already stated. You will be working side by side with these people. Just stop whining and putting a company down cause you didn't care for the interview or whatever your hidden problem is, cause based on what your posted you have some other issue that is causing you to react like this. By the way, added years or letter after your name doesn't mean your better then anyone else. Just something I took from your post you seem to have a problem with, also the information you place on a resume is not anything that is private so not sure what your getting at with that either. Small company or not, you never really do know who is looking at your resume. Why would it matter who views it, all it is stating is your experience and knowledge. Sure your name address and phone number are on it, but it's also in a phone book. So unless you put some untruths in it, why does it matter who looks at it. I just thing this post is childish, and unprofessional. Whining and knocking a company cause you didn't get the job or cause you need justification for not getting it.

[JPINFV]

Is it even possible to whine about a company if you don't mention the name of that company? His question is valid, especially if the style of interview was new to him.

[tniuqs]

[/font:d79a52fbcb] The first thought that comes to my mind is Why? Any of us who have been in this field for any time have applied and interviewed with many services. Some good and some that scared the heck out of us, but you take it for what it is and move on. You didn't like it, then don't take the job and move on and stop whining on the internet about the company and seeking support of strangers to not take the job. I own an EMS company and I don't interview like most companies in this area as well. In fact I don't interview in an office or at the station, 90% of the time I interview at a coffee house. Personally I think it is more relaxing for everyone. But a second interview is conducted at the station and other staff members are a part of it, mainely for the reasons already stated. You will be working side by side with these people. Just stop whining and putting a company down cause you didn't care for the interview or whatever your hidden problem is, cause based on what your posted you have some other issue that is causing you to react like this. By the way, added years or letter after your name doesn't mean your better then anyone else. Just something I took from your post you seem to have a problem with, also the information you place on a resume is not anything that is private so not sure what your getting at with that either. Small company or not, you never really do know who is looking at your resume. Why would it matter who views it, all it is stating is your experience and knowledge. Sure your name address and phone number are on it, but it's also in a phone book. So unless you put some untruths in it, why does it matter who looks at it. I just thing this post is childish, and unprofessional. Whining and knocking a company cause you didn't get the job or cause you need justification for not getting it.

A few interesting tangents that you propose, I submit that you maybe reading into a tad more emotion into this senario, than I. Yes, I have used some literary licence to amplify my position regarding this type of hiring process.

If you indeed are the owner of an EMS Operation then your statement about coffee type interview does contradict this type of group social interview cant have it both ways can you ? and in passing the vested owner of this hypothetical company was not present either which is curious in itself as in most reputable smaller size operation's that I have worked for, the owner is very involved.

So whats your take on that ?

My question posed is that of hiring based on a "the social interview" and based on a possible a perceived impression (quite aware of working with many other partners in my history) My point is opposed to merit, proven experiance, past + continuing education with the reliability of an mature medic and in "addition" a degree level program above the required prerequsites. This is not "a better than anyone else" or "chest beating" situation, moreover the most qualified candidate, besides the 'hidden problem" that you are eluding too which is just plain silly, seriously, that made me laugh.

I do have some difficulty having my personal information to people that really have a no idea who they may be as without specific permission requested this becomes a breach of trust in my humble view and to do this during the interview could be constrewed as "pressuring" the candidate.

I have already answered your query of padding one's resume I believe you missed that point, quite unacceptable and considered fraud in a professional C.V bottom line in my view, but just to reiterate that is professional suicide.

No point in responding to the :

I just thing this post is childish, and unprofessional. Whining and knocking a company cause you didn't get the job or cause you need justification for not getting it.

Medic Troll: I believe that you may be guilty of drawing a conclusion without hearing / seeing all the cards, well just yet. I have been known to do some forshadowing and perhaps have yet to tip all my cards just yet :shock:

I do enjoy the old adage: the opera ain't over till the phat lady sings. :oops:

In response to your comment about the internet as clearly stated by JPINFV and thanks for that :wink: As most that know myself on this site, I am quite capable of debating fairly intelligently of most concepts that I philosophically and idealistically believe in..

cheers thanks for your perspective as a Private EMS owner.

[emtannie]

Within 10 minutes the "entire group" of employees, that's 6 crews sit down at table (am. change over) and they all have the opportunity to review the resume you have submitted. You have not been asked for your permission to share and unknowing that prior to this group interview that ALL would have access to all the information you have provided in confidence to the employer.

People have already commented on some of the other areas, but this is a paragraph that caught my eye.

Whether it is illegal or breaks any confidentiality laws or not, I feel that the passing around of resumes is not professional. An application provided in confidence should be reviewed by the supervisor and human resources, not the entire staff. Management and Human resources personnel are generally held to a higher standard of care, and responsibility regarding personnel issues than "regular staff". It only takes one slip for an employee to mention to a friend that "so and so" applied for a position, and then the friend mentions it to someone, and it gets back to so and so's current employer, possibly causing issues there.

And, to add my two cents to the group dynamic thing... if the entire staff is allowed to be in on the decision, who decides what the criteria is for hiring? There is the danger of the staff wanting to hire someone who is good at making coffee, brings donuts every day, or for the women to want the guy who looks great in uniform, or the guys to want the girl with big ****... I know this is presenting shallowness to the extreme, but it is possible. The wants of employees may be completely different than the wants of management. Perhaps management wants someone who can come in and be a leader, be a mentor, and push the other staff to improve their professionalism and skills. Perhaps the staff are happy with the status quo and don't want anyone who will disrupt their current situation. If this is the case, the group decision may not go well regardless of who gets hired, and the new hire will be the scapegoat for anything that happens.

I agree with MIke's comment - if it doesn't feel right, it's not... trust your gut...