Should People With Infectious Diseases Be Allowed in EMS?

[Just Plain Ruff]

I won't go into particulars but a certain person was upset about getting chat booted. they then expressed displeasure over the healthcare workers wiht hiv or hep b not being able to work.

He then told me that he was going to take that entire thread and send it to a emt forum that is for HIV infected emts and the like. Said he would let them all see what kind of people we were over here.

I told him do whatever you want but don't be surprised at a negative reaction to anyone who comes here to complain.

He said he didn't care. Then AK booted him out.

So that's the threats that were made.

[Dustdevil]

See, this is exactly what I mean about this being all about people's "feelings". These guys are so used to everybody tip-toeing around and kissing their arses in a desperate attempt to be politically correct and spare their delicate feelings that they feel empowered to bully others around. Homey don't play dat.

Bring em on. I love to see a grown man cry.

[DwayneEMTP]

Ok...For the record, in case my posts haven't made it clear.

Perhaps there is the "Hug the world"(anyone ill or 'repressed') contingent out there. But that is not where my opinion was based. It was based on the science and math that says this is a risk that is insignificant.

Ignorance, obesity, laziness, apathy, careless driving, and the common cold all, to my way of thinking, prove a larger, documented risk to patient care then the diseases we've argued here...

I'm not "for" any group of people. As well, I refuse to create a group to be against based on an irrational view of their threat to society....

I firmly prescribe to Dennis Miller's line of thought that," When we first meet, I owe you nothing but my complete and utter indifference."

Show me the science that says they (infected HCWs) are a danger, and I'll get on board...until then...aint happenin'....

Dwayne

[chbare]

Actually, Dustdevil has been the most consistent with his arguments. In a sense, it is one way discrimination if you will. EMS workers can prevent somebody with one of these diseases from joining their ranks; however, the same standard does not apply to the patient, even when considering the safety aspect of the argument.

So far, the evidence that I have seen indicates that actual exposure incidents and transmission of a disease is more likely to occur between an infected patient and uninfected EMS worker. Not the other way around. So, for the sake of discussion, Dustdevil's argument is valid.

Nothing personal people, it is all about meaningful discussion from where I stand. I liken this to Vs-eh's God/transformer thread. You do not have to agree; however, meaningful discussion occurred. IMHO

Take care,

chbare.

[Miz Black Crow]

According to Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, Infectious is defined as: 1 : capable of causing infection <a carrier remains infectious without exhibiting signs of disease> <viruses and other infectious agents>

2 : communicable by invasion of the body of a susceptible organism <all contagious diseases are also infectious, but it does not follow that all infectious diseases are contagious —W. A. Hagan> —compare CONTAGIOUS 1 —in·fec·tious·ly adverb —in·fec·tious·ness noun

Contagious is defined as:

1 : communicable by contact <tuberculosis in the contagious stage> —compare INFECTIOUS 2

2 : bearing contagion <many persons … are contagious long before they are aware of the presence of their disease —Journal of the American Medical Association>

3 : used for contagious diseases <a contagious ward> —con·ta·gious·ly adverb —con·ta·gious·ness noun

Hopefully no one will criticize me for not having any posts on this BB in the past. I've spent a good while today reading every post in this thread, carefully considering its viewpoints, and have come up with the following as my personal musings on the topic.

-How many documented cases have there been of healthcare workers exposing their patients to blood-borne pathogens? I've searched; perhaps my google-fu is lacking, but I haven't found any hard data on this. Even if there were, say, 10,000 documented cases of this (which I personally doubt), how many patient contacts have been made? Between the EMTs, the paramedics, the RNs, the CNAs, the MDs, dentists, surgeons, PAs, and any other acronyms you can name making contact with any given patient, the risk of any given healthcare provider exposing a patient to the HCWs blood is infinitesimal.

-Even if this WERE to occur, which (as Dwayne so elegantly pointed out) is highly unlikely, what would prevent the patient from following the same exact procedures that all of us do when exposed blood-to-blood with ANY patient, positive for whatever H-V disease or not? Ask (or get a court order) for the HCW's blood to be drawn and tested, take baseline bloodwork for the patient, and offer the patient ARV medications once the risks have been fully explained to them? Early ARV treatment of persons known to come into contact (even blood-to-blood) with HIV has been proven to drastically reduce rates of seroconversion. Who considers this to be any less of an option for our patients than it is for ourselves?

"I would suppose a better question to ask is how do you determine when a HCW is too high of an infection risk?"

THIS is the real question, and I'm afraid I forget who raised it (Sorry!) My theory is, anyone who is contagious with an airborne disease should be restricted from patient care until they are no longer contagious (this includes those who are TB+, the flu, the common cold, or anything else), but anything that requires extraordinary measures (i.e. blood contact) should not be restricted at all. The point that an infectious (NOT contagious) person with any kind of chronic ailment should be restricted should be the point at which they are no longer able to perform patient care (due to disease process, medication side effects, whatever).

It seems that some are worried about one of us being the next Typhoid Mary of EMS. Personally, I agree with whoever it was (Sorry I can't give credit; it's a loooong thread) who said they would rather be treated by someone with an infectious disease. Personally, I find people who have gone through hardships and come out of it still wanting to help people make the best EMTs and medics.... or at least until we burn out on being nice and finally give up and be pricks like everyone else

Just thought-food. These are my opinions. If you don't like them, I have others.

[Just Plain Ruff]

An exceptionally well worded post new member. I look forward to your next posts coming.

[Miz Black Crow]

*doffs her cap* I thank you for the compliment, Ruff. I try to be productive, thoughtful and constructive in my posts. Just my two bits (prices went up due to inflation and the rising cost of brain food).

[DwayneEMTP]

Ok, what the hell is going on with all these brainy 20 something year old girls!!

Put Wendy an MBC together on any topic that they agree on and it will be a blood bath for most of the rest of us....

Then again, if they disagre....hmmmmm..

Great, smart post MBC, thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

And welcome!

Dwayne

[Miz Black Crow]

*feels all welcome and loved*

[UtProsim]

I have read alot of the posts in this topic, and I have to say, I am surprised at some of the responses. Discrimination is not limited to race or sex or religious beliefs, it is also discriminative to exclude a person from their constitutional right to seek whatever career makes them happy just because they had or have a disease. Right now, if a person has committed and was convicted of a felony, in most cased they are automatically disqualified from applying for a job with Fire or EMS, that was their choice to commit that crime, Now, people don't always contract a disease like the afore mentioned from illicit drug activity or unprotected intercourse, there are plenty of babies born with those types of diseases every day, and some are purely and simply accidental, so should those people have lesser rights than the rest of us? Absolutely not. Compassion for others and the ability to put yourself in the shoes of others, who are by no choice of their own less fortunate than you, should be a part of all of "us" who joined the Fire and EMS service to help others, now do I want to be worked on by a person with HIV or AIDS or any other contractible life altering disease? Not really, but who's to say I haven't been already? and who's to say it should be illegal? My opinion is that we as a society, should not let our fear allow us to discriminate against other less fortunate people, all in all we are ALL God's creation, brothers and sisters who are called to "love one another"