NREMT-Basic

Dwayne- First of all, when you go on the offensive, you should at least have the manners to say who you are aiming your post at. Obviously since your latest post appears directly after mine, I assume you are addressing me. If I want to ask Admin to lock a thread, I have every right to do that and don't need your permission. As you say, I am a big boy and don't need your blessing to do anything. Secondly, (and I intend to address this in an entirely new thread), this infighting simply must stop and, yes I will admit to being one of many perpetrators who have kept it rolling. Given my educational level, social skills and ability to communicate effectively and intelligently without resorting to name calling or snide remarks, I am embarrassed that on numerous occassions I have not done this. Far too often, as with VS's recent post calling a sexual assault victim an idiot, I allow my emotions to cloud my judgement and am guilty of hijacking a thread simply to go on the counter offensive and engage in name calling, insults and other inappropriate tactics to feel as though I am making a point. Let me be clear. I do not feel that the purpose of these threads is to make a point. The purpose is to hold open, intelligent and meaningful dialogue pertaining to the profession of EMS in all of its forms. I like the occassional silly thread that has nothing to do with anything just as much as anyone else, but when any thread degenerates into name calling and abusive accusations, I find myself leaving the City for sometime with a bad taste in my mouth, often from the way that I myself have behaved. So, from this point forward, I will not allow myself to get baited into arguing and petty bickering. I will conduct myself with the decorum and professionalism that we all seek to advance in our chosen field of EMS. I have often wondered what someone who is not active in the EMS community but passes through the City must think of us all. Anyone with access to a computer can read our threads and to be honest, I am embarrassed at the picture that so many of them paint of so may of us as EMS professionals. How can we expect those outside of the field of EMS to respect us as professionals, we we cant seem to managed to behave that way on a consistent basis. So it is with this is mind that I will do my utmost to be a positive, contributory and mature member of this online community which is based on the profession that we all love so much and that so many of us have chosen to. I lay blame squarely on my shoulders for the argumentative nature of so many threads. But I don't take all the blame. I think it is safe to say that a large number of those who regularly post have at some time and possibly even frequently allow themselves to use threads to play the game of I know more than you do and my truck is bigger that yours. As we head toward the new year, lets all make a commitment to be civil and professional whether the post is extraordinarily serious in tone or more light hearted. I will attempt to offer my own actions from this point forward as an example and I sincerely hope that the rest of the City will venture to do the same thing. If we bash and insult each other, how can we expect any respect from those who may just be "passing through." Thanks to all who take the time to read this and I really do hope that if someone finds something I have said offensive, incorrect, etc that they will respectfully let me know so that we can all learn from each other. And remember, some things are better suited for PMs. Thanks to one and all, happy holidays and heres looking toward a new and improved level of discussion and participation as we move into the new year.

I also didnt notice that he was in Canada before I wrote that posting. Ah well.

I will say this and then let the thread die, at least for my part. In a relatively recent issue of the journal of the American Medical Association, the AMAs immediate past president was asked about the life-saving capabilities of EMS crews, he was also asked how valuable he believes them to be on the continuum of emergency medical care. He replied: "In my opinion, as a former trauma physician, the vast majority of the patients experiencing major traumas in any of a myriad of ways have their fate in terms of life or death determined by the very first responder to assess that patient." Of course he isnt offering figures because the question was anecdotal, but he would certainly seem to believe that EMS responders do in fact save lives. What you failed to see Whit, was that I was not saying that first responders (aka EMS from Basics to Paramedic level) are given total credit for saving lives in 100% of the calls to which they respond. However, I would like to think, that im your 10 years as an EMT you would be able to count the times that you prevented a person with serious trauma from dying would need to be counted on more than one hand. My count so far...well, I am told by my mentor that I have 1 "save" under my belt. Called to a private residence where a child eating outside the presence of her patents began to choke on a rather large hunk of sandwich. By the time the parents realized this, the child was cyanotic with a completely compromised airway and barely conscious or responsive. I was told by the medic to try to remove the foreign body, which I couldnt and our protocols state that you get one try to get that thing out of there with your fingers or pickups and then only if you can see the whole object. When i couldnt remove the foreign body and thus assist the child in protecting her own airway, I used that old standby the Heimlich Maneuver. As I stepped behind the patient she went limp in my arms. As the paramedic held her upright, I performed a series of abdominal thrusts which eventually dislodged the food and achieved a patent airway. No, I dont want to be known as I guy who stamps little stars on his shirt for each life he saves....thats not the way I see it. But since no one else was there or able to assist this patient from choking to death, who prevented her death. The hospital, nurses, medical control. Nope. Just a medic and an EMT using a technique as old as the hills. So for me, thats one. I would hate to think that after ten years I couldnt look back on my career as either an emt or future medic and say that my skills only pulled someone back five times... I appreciate your apology for being insulting. But, its a rare person indeed who can be insulting and apologize for it in the same breath. I wont argue with you anymore and I also wont apologize except to the people who have had their time wasted and their brain cells fried by reading this ignorant thread. And yes, I count myself among the wankers who contributed to this thread. EMS professionals save lives thousands of times each day around the world, as do doctors, nurses, surgeons, support staff, school teachers, janitors and the list goes on forever. When I say that I am proud to have saved a life, I am not beating my chest about it. I am merely saying that I am proud and honored to have been called upon to assist someone in one of their greatest times of need. And I wrote that girls parents a letter through the hospital saying that I was honored to be allowed to help their child. I dont care who gets the credit for the save, so long as the saves get made.

From a legal standpoint- Federal law prohibits the introduction of information from a minor's sealed case. The are only a handful of people who may be given asscess to that record upon a request duly granted by a judge who has weighed the harm it might cause to unseal it vs. the good it would do. Those people are, in no special order: the juvenile him/herself the parents of the juvenile counsel appointed as guardian ad litem to represent the minor in the delinquency adjudication counsel who was appointed to "prosecute" the delinquency charge the judge who adjudicated the case and in this case, that judge must present his written motion to unseal the record of a minor to another judge, who did not adjudicate the original case. So ok...if you are worried about something that might come up during a polygraph because you are nervous about it, the yes, address it. But no one other than the persons of record listed above, have any right to request or be given permission to unseal the record. If you were of minor age when teh infraction occurred and are now of the age of majority, you can legally respond in the negative when asked about this case or charge, whichever it may be. BUt I do agree that probably just admitting it is the best way to go. Minors are not found guilty or not guilty, they are found to be delinquent or not delinquent. And here is a legal hair to split: if you answer no, you are technically correct, since once the record is sealed after the delinquency adjudication and the minor then reaches the age of majority, that offense is expunged and will never be allowed to brought up in court during an adult case, etc. I am not giving legal advice, but rather information gather during years of work in the legal profession. The best policy is going to be just to say "yep, i did it when I was a minor" and let it go at that. This is kind of a damned of you do damned if you dont situation. Good luck.

Certified Athletic Trainers in the US are pretty good too, I think. But like, American Basics, the have a pretty carefully defined and limited scope and that involves things like splinting, possibly traction splinting, bandaging, tape-stabilizing twised ankle and applying ice or heat. I certainly dont know any of them, and I have never worked with any who could diagnose an injury down the specific involved vertebra. And what the heck does an injured vertebra mean any way. OK I can understand how that might mean that the vertebral body is broken or has been wrenched from its nice cozy little spot, but unless that trainer has memorized what spinal injuries affect what parts of the body and body function, I dont see any legitimate way he could say this. And another thing...Was he at all concerned about the free flowing CSF in the ear. And we were taught not to take off an athletes frigging helmet if their sport has one, which usually takes us here in America down to a football helmet. I cant imagine that a batting helmet or an equestrian helmet cap would do much to assist in maintaining inline stabilization. We were even trained in a lot of cases, (of course the modifier with that was, use your own judgement) not to remove a crashed motorcyclists helmet as long as the helmet is intact and its structure no compromised. Maybe this is not the right thing to do, but heck, my primary Basic intructor hadnt been on a call in 10 years, was a Basic herself and couldnt pronounce medical terminologu with more than two syllables, so I guess take the helmet thing for what its worth. I did see video of an American football player being taken off the field on the golf cart and he was still wearing his helmet.

Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaa Nelly! I agree that this thread should be locked down with all due haste. I didnt make this about urban vs. rural, nor did I start the thread. And you are quoting alot of other people in your latest rant and seem to be attributing the statements of others to me. You even managed to call Anatomy Chick "Sir". As for you accusing me of sucking up to more senior members of the city, well...you obviously dont have the ability to differentiate between sucking up and paying senior members with decades of experience the respect that they deserve for their knowledge, experience, training and length of service. Have I been argumentative during this thread. Yes, but really mostly with you. Yes I can quote things that you have said that are insulting to rural providers and statements you have made saying that urban services are superior. Honestly, I have never learned how to insert quotations into these posts. I have no doubt that you will deny that all of that last post was aimed at me since you seem to be in the habit of saying things and then denying them. However, you used quotations from several different posters and seemed to want them to represent my thoughts and attitudes just for the sake of argument. Im really quite tired of all of this and am very tired of responding to things that you either directly or indirectly state only to deny them 3 post later. Give it a rest man. If it takes me saying ok you win for you to just be quiet, then ok, you win. But even you must be able to see the ridiculous nature of your statement that responders whether they are basic or medic, urban or rural, do not save lives. If you roll on a code, and you and your partner are able to bring that patient back, whereas he probably would have died had EMS not shown up, then you and your partner saved his life. There werent doctors there, no nurses, no code team, just responders. Your argument that people in all walks of EMS do not save lives just doesnt hold water. If we dont save lives (and I am not saying we do on every call) then why do we exist at all. If Pre-hopsital emergency responders dont save lives in the field, the EMS is one of the greatest inside jokes ever perpatrated on mankind. Choking babies, MIs MVCs, MCIs, overdoses of every shape and kind, gun shot wounds, stabbings, any situation where a patient would have bled out without the efforts of an EMS crew these all to me seem like ways in which EMS saves lives each day. I cant believe that you have been an EMT for 10 years and dont believe that there are many many times that a patient would have died had EMS not been on scene within minutes after dispatch. Ever hear of the platinum 10? That has nothing to do with trauma and code teams at hospitals. That is a lifesaving benchmark of sorts for EMS. So, as an early Christmas present to you, though I think that most of your points are illogical and self-contradictory, I will concede this round to you. You Win! Now get out there and dont save lives.

Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaa Nelly! I agree that this thread should be locked down with all due haste. I didnt make this about urban vs. rural, nor did I start the thread. And you are quoting alot of other people in your latest rant and seem to be attributing the statements of others to me. You even managed to call Anatomy Chick "Sir". As for you accusing me of sucking up to more senior members of the city, well...you obviously dont have the ability to differentiate between sucking up and paying senior members with decades of experience the respect that they deserve for their knowledge, experience, training and length of service. Have I been argumentative during this thread. Yes, but really mostly with you. Yes I can quote things that you have said that are insulting to rural providers and statements you have made saying that urban services are superior. Honestly, I have never learned how to insert quotations into these posts. I have no doubt that you will deny that all of that last post was aimed at me since you seem to be in the habit of saying things and then denying them. However, you used quotations from several different posters and seemed to want them to represent my thoughts and attitudes just for the sake of argument. Im really quite tired of all of this and am very tired of responding to things that you either directly or indirectly state only to deny them 3 post later. Give it a rest man. If it takes me saying ok you win for you to just be quiet, then ok, you win. But even you must be able to see the ridiculous nature of your statement that responders whether they are basic or medic, urban or rural, do not save lives. If you roll on a code, and you and your partner are able to bring that patient back, whereas he probably would have died had EMS not shown up, then you and your partner saved his life. There werent doctors there, no nurses, no code team, just responders. Your argument that people in all walks of EMS do not save lives just doesnt hold water. If we dont save lives (and I am not saying we do on every call) then why do we exist at all. If Pre-hopsital emergency responders dont save lives in the field, the EMS is one of the greatest inside jokes ever perpatrated on mankind. Choking babies, MIs MVCs, MCIs, overdoses of every shape and kind, gun shot wounds, stabbings, any situation where a patient would have bled out without the efforts of an EMS crew these all to me seem like ways in which EMS saves lives each day. I cant believe that you have been an EMT for 10 years and dont believe that there are many many times that a patient would have died had EMS not been on scene within minutes after dispatch. Ever hear of the platinum 10? That has nothing to do with trauma and code teams at hospitals. That is a lifesaving benchmark of sorts for EMS. So, as an early Christmas present to you, though I think that most of your points are illogical and self-contradictory, I will concede this round to you. You Win! Now get out there and dont save lives.

Just to throw in my 2 cents (as it were) and totally confuse the conversation: In this thread there have been discussions of pay based on training, experience, supply and demand, etc. If we were to confine the topic to simply dealing with private 911 response agencies, should someone with more education make more than someone with less. I honestly dont know the answer to this so I would love to hear some good intelligent responses. After the service that I was with when I first got my basic went to all ALS crews and laid off all Basics, citing that it was a business decision since they felt that an all ALS service would generate more revenue, gain more private standby contracts, etc. When I went to the next private agency to find a job, I was turned down for lack of experience. Fair enough I suppose though it stuck in my craw for a couple of weeks. Now that service that went belly up had medics with a plethora of different levels of experience, training, time on level, etc. Here is the question. Should private agencies consider those factors when determining how much to pay new staff. I have an associates degree with honors, a bachelors degree with honors and 1 year in medical school before I forced to drop out after an auto accident. Should I be paid the same wages as someone who has a high school diploma only or even a GED and has equivalent time on the job? Should life experience count for anything? The emt that beat me out for the gig has GED and about a year of experience. I am confused by my own question here but I would really like to know what you think Ops Managers should do about hiring when they are non-union and have the ability to offer more or less pay based on experience, training and education. If you can make any sense of my question here, I look forward to your input. Writing the darn thing gave me a headache.

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Good Lord! Whats it going to take to get this testosterone fueled p'ssing match locked down. What a waste of space. Whit- You are absolutely correct in saying that you didnt start this thread, you are just responding. However, you have repeatedly made comments about response times, training, medics from urban services being able to respond so quickly that they have time to tell you what they did with their weekend. If youre not a subtle enough thinker to see that many of your posts have been derogatory to rural responders, either explicitly or implicitly, well then... Im glad to see that you finally answered the question about your level of certification. I didnt ask that to prove that you may or may not be incompetant, but rather to determine where you are coming from with so many of your chest puffing comments about all of the things you do in an urban response setting. Now that I see that, like me, you are an EMT, I know that alot of your duties are driving, bandaging, giving aspirin and oxygen, etc. All levels of responders save lives. All levels of responders from all sorts of response areas save lives. You keep egging people on and then saying you didnt do it and then in the next sentence repeating exactly the same thing you implied. Before I was laid off because the service that I was with went all medic, we had a response area of 250 square miles. Rural, Urban, City, Country, County, Suburbs and the occassional bodies of water. The fact remains that if you commit yourself as a volunteer first responder in a super rural setting or a Critical Care Paramedic in Washington, DC, we all do the same job and as you say we all ride around in the shiny truck with the flashing lights. That is except for those rural providers that have to do these jobs in their POVs. The fact remains that lives get saved by people who have ambulances, those who dont, those who have full tactical uniforms and those who respond to calls off a scanner wearing camo hunting gear. Anyone who is willing to take the responsibility for the life of another is a hero. Most people wouldnt do what alot of us do in a million years. So lighten up. Every system does the best they can with what they have and WHERE they are. Sorry everyplace doesnt have highrise hospitals and 5 minute response times. Every single responder on this site, from folks like Dust, who do their jobs with mortar rounds incoming to a retired school teacher first responder who lives in the middle of a cornfield and maybe responds to a call once every couple of months gets a thumbs up in my book. Sure you see alot of FDNY stories on the news and in other media, but lifesavers from BFEUSA should get an extra pat on the back. You have insinuated through this entire thread that urban was superior to rural, if only by saying that you would rather have an urban team respond to your emergency. That is your opinion and you have every single right to say it no matter how obnoxious it may get. But dont light firecrackers in the forums and then pretend you didnt say anything. Dude, youre only getting chopped cause you put your own head on the frigging block...over and over and over again. I know that this post will get me quoted and blasted apart by you (you have proven the delight you take in doing this) and I dont really care. Have at it. I now volunteer for a county service in northern Illinois and handle mostly rural calls. So if you are ever in my neck of the woods, would you please put out the "Urban lifesavers only please" sign in your back window so I dont accidentally respond and waste time and resources. Also, if we ever pick you up and you are unconscious and then you come to and see guys in no uniforms taking care of you, feel free to ask to be let out of the rig. If Im driving, I will gladly pull over.

Oh and for the record, I feel the same sort of uneasiness about all of the folks running around in NYPD and FDNY gear since 9/11. Its like you werent there, you dont have the training, dont wear the gear. Could we make an analogy to someone walking down the street in full USMC dress blues with rank insignia and decorations when he hadnt been in the Marines. In high school, I worked in an army navy surplus shop and while we were a supplier for ribbons, medals and rank insignia to all members of the service (we had a particular connection to the National Guard from Illinois) we would not sell any rank or decoration materials to anyone who couldnt show proof that they had a right to possess and/or wear the ribbons and medals. Im certainly not equating the NREMT cert. with the Congressional Medal of Honor, but I wonder if its not sort of in the same ball park at a much smaller level. Thanks again.

I just have a quick item to put out to others who like to collect and trade patches as I do: There is a fellow (I am sure several) selling NREMT cert patches on EBAY including some that he claims are rare "tactical versions." First off, I didnt know that the NREMT had a certification for tactical responders. Ive seen the patch he is talking about and there is no tactical designation (this one happens to be the NREMT Paramedic Patch), only the identical medics patch in subdued tact. color scheme. My question is, is it ethical, or even legal to buy or sell patches which indicate a specific certification, especially when so many states are now using the NREMT as their licensure qualification. To me, it seems a little different to trade or sell a patch from Podunk Fire and Rescue which has no certification attached to it than it is to be marketing in insignia and patches, etc which only certified members of the NREMT can legally get from the organization itself. Nothing against Paramedics of course, but I do happen to think that the NREMT Medic Patch is god awful looking and I about barfed when one of our local services went to using it on their uniforms. That aside, does anybody have any input on selling insignias and patches which require certification and testing to get them in the first place. I lost my original NREMT-Basic patch and had to provide them with ID and cert.number to be able to buy another one. I dont know. Just seems a little sketchy to me. Sort of seems like some guy going to a swap meet and buying a Medal of Honor Recipient license plate holder and slapping on his chevy even though he has never seen a day in the service. Im not making a judgement here, just seeing what some other more seasons responders might have to say. Thanks.

Whit- I dont know who your were talking to in your last post. If you want to only be treated by urban based agencies, thats fine. As was wisely stated by another poster to this thread, I would like whoever has the necessary equipment to take care of me. You may want to put a sign on your car that says "if I have had an mvc in a rural area, and you are a rural responder, please let me die while waiting 45 minutes for the next available urban crew to arrive. Thank you." The thing that I cant understand is your refusal to state to what level of EMS you are certified. I made the mistake of getting myself caught up in this thread, but you have made so many insulting, outlandish and baseless comments that it makes my head spin. I know...a tattoo that says "dont care for me unless you are a paid responder from a crew based in a city of 100,000 or more." I think this thread long ago stopped making sense. so maybe the powers that be can just go ahead and lock 'er up.

For me its not so much a matter of not approving of the use of less lethal weapons, as it is the training required before and officer can deploy them. My father had his butt saved on a number of occassions by less lethals when he was still wearing the badge. However, I also know that his training consisted of "see that little red dot, dont point that at the head" and once the volts are applied shout "stop resisting or your gonna get it again" as many times as you can for any news cameras that may be lingering in the shadows. I have used these less lethals and have also "taken the ride" during training. Yes, it hurts like an SOB, and does cause momentary confusion after the voltage stops flowing, which is what it is intended to do. In the IL Police Academy, new officer trainees are only required to take one 5 second ride at the end of the wires. There is a greater factor for disorientation and regaining the ability for coordinated "compliance" when you have been tazed say, 6 or 7 times. And I agree with some of the other posters that I would rather get tazed than hit with an asp baton. And would rather experience both at the same time then wind up with some surgical intern trying to fish a 9mm chunck of lead out of my spleen. If you really want the tazer experience, you can sign up for tactical classes, learn the ins and outs of the weapon, get popped with it once or twice and then get to pop others. Or, if you like, I am sure you could go down to your local PD Post and have them shoot you with a tazer and then a 9mm and play the game of better or worse. The fact remains that in a large majority of the cases, the tazer brings immediate compliance and no more lasting harm than two little sizzle burns at the point of impact.

A determination of cheating is virtually impossible. As I said, and i stand by my assertion based on my experience with these systems, there is no determination called "cheated...drop him like a hot rock" there is only "inconclusive, you make the call." As for putting words in your mouth, I wouldnt know how to fit them in there.

PS- Yes I have responded to GSWs as I do live in an urban area where we have about 3-4 such calls a month. Probably not as exciting as your Metropolis, but yeah, we Basics are trained to deal with gsw...cavitation and all. While we are at it...which is more likely to create the greater and more unpredicatable cavitation...a .22 rim fire or a SigSauer 9mm? While will pitch and yaw more as it makes it way through your patient? If you dont put in a chest tube, how many sides would you afix your occlusive dressing to the patients wound, 3 or 4? You also said you would prefer the medic who has put in 7-8 ETTs recently...what if that isnt available immediately? Are you scared of combitubes? This is so much fun. Lets keep playing. I am not insecure in my skills as a Basic, nor do i feel a need tp prove myself to you. I think we can lock up this thread.

Whit- as far as the als provider running to the scene, she was called after a relative called 911 and an ALS rig was at least 20 minutes out. As far as what she did or could do...ever hear of a jump kit? You conveniently skipped answering what your level or training is or how long you have been working in EMS? Do you believe that getting paid makes you better, more skilled? You brought opened the door about the number of calls answered, saying that you have answer more calls than the other provider in this thread. You wouldnt let a pt exposed to ammonia in YOUR rig? Neat! You own your own service? If not, it aint your bus unless you paid for it. You may infact have some un-natural attachment to it, but it doesnt belong to you. And since you brought up hazmat and you have an apparent disdain for rural ems, you probably arent aware that most small volly rural ems agencies dont have hazmat capability or resources. While you are figuring out how to disentangle the pt from a piece of machinery, would you also excersise your super duper urban skills to stop them from bleeding out, or would you stick one needle in your arm and one in theirs and auto transfuse. Or do you carry FFP in YOUR ambulance? As for having a brass set, I dont doubt it. When one has to flex ones ego as greatly as you do, I can only assume you have no active hormones and so have to prove yourself to be the Uber-Urban..sorry, what was your level again? Have a great day and dont forget to polish your brass,

Dust- to quote you with regard to the polygraph: "youre not gonna beat it." And by the way when you exercise techniques to "confuse" the system it doesnt indicate that you are possibly suspect in your answers, but rather that the test, if it is run by an ethical, certified examiner, was inconclusive and should be repeated or not repeated. If the results seem muddled, one is not classified as being "deceptive." I think you drastically overestimate the sophistication of these machines. Poly=many. Graph= writing or in this case pens. They do not measure whether you are telling the truth or lying. They measure changes in pulse O2, respirations, perspiration and heart-rate. Thats it. I have seen first hand an inconclusive result from a person who drank several cups of espresso when my father (who was a certified examiner) was asked to conduct a study on the systems accuracy. These simple machines which do not in fact measure truth or lies, but rather physiology are consistantly inconclusive which is why they are not admissable in any court, and should not be required as a condition of employment. The same person that has test taking anxiety in a classroom, might well tell the absolute truth during a polygraphic examination and due to their anxiety, be listed as possibly not being truthful, which is the best the machine can do, regardless of what all those neato cop shows would have you believe.

Whit- Do you have to have a seperate rig to carry your ego? What level of EMS provider are you? I would put alot of rural providers up against urban providers any day. Why? Because most rural responders have a commitment to their community and not to the number of calls they answer. When I did my clinicals, I ran 30 calls in 24 hours. That has absolutely nothing to do with the skill of the provider. I recently ran on a call where a rural provider, off duty, ran across the town square to stabilize a patient until we got there. If it was not for her expert ALS level of care, there is no doubt that when we got there, all we could have done was call the coroner. You sure have a set of brass ones on you bashing rural responders. The number of calls in shift is meaningless in terms of level of care. Perhaps in your urban area you might deal with more gsw calls or drug calls, but do you know how to disentangle someone from farm equipment? Would you even know where to begin to treat a patient for inhalation of anhydrous ammonia. Get over yourself. Tell you what...if you are ever vacationing in a rural area, and need ALS or even BLS care, you go ahead and turn away the rural responders to wait for the urban crew. I would imagine that the only thing that rivals the size of your ego is the amount of crap you carry on your belt. What a nob.

ps- I must disagree with Dust on the idea that polygraphs cannot be beaten. Not only can they be beaten, they can be confused, the results misinterpreted depending on the training of the person administering the polygraph, if you move quickly in your chair, it will cause the results to fluctuate. The only real improvement in these systems over the last 20 years is the addition of an iris scanner or camera which registers the movement of your eye during the test. People tend to look up and to the left when they are remembering and down and to the right when they are lying or making something up. Sorry Dust, but somebody wanting to beat a polygraph can do so quite easily as I stated in my previous post or at the very least, do things which will render the results so scewed as to be unuseable. The US military spend a great deal of time teaching certain personnel the fine art of deceiving such devices.

I have a few questions about the criminal record check: First, do they allow the use of a polygraph in Canada as a job condition. I cant imagine this as the polygraph, or so called lie detector is notoriously unreliable, it is possible and easy to cheat the machine given simple techniques found on the internet and also, in the US polygraph information is not admissable in any court. As a former defense law paralegal, I saw the polygraph rapidly falling out of favor within the justice system, due in no small part to how unaccurate they are. You could just have an anxiety attack due to be constricted with the respiratory measurement banding and the machine would "indicate" that you are lying on everything. They are pieces of shite. More importantly perhaps, what took the state of Maine until 2003 to start doing checks? Illinois has been doing checks through NCIC (a nationwide database) for almost as long as they have been licensing EMS. If you are truly worried about what might or might not be on your record, go down to your local courthouse and give then your name, date of birth and social security number and they will give you a background check on yourself. Thats what most employers do, or, they get a friend in law enforcement to run a check through NCIC under false pretenses (since it is illegal to use the system for personal reasons). And, finally, and this always stumped me as a paralegal, how do you not know what might appear on your record. You did it. You were there. Its your life. Chances are if you beat your wife or got caught holding enough crack to be considered a distribution amount (any amount of cocaine is a felony is all 50 states) you would probably remember....you know...that hotel room where you got your drinking water out of the toilet? Violent crimes are not likely to be overlooked, and the same goes with sex crimes. And even though they ask if you have ever been convicted of a felony and then tell you it will not automatically bar you from employment, I can pretty much guarantee you it will, aside from the fact that in many states, convicted felons cannot hold positions of "public trust.' I know that Canadian law will differ from US law, but the laws among the states are becoming more standardized all the time and both Canadian Law and American Law are derived from English Common Law Statutes. Here in IL, you will lose your license if you gain a new misdemeanor or felony conviction within the first year of holding your license AND being employed actively in EMS.

Having been tazed, maced, sprayed with pepperspray, shot with bean bag rounds rubber bullets, etc all in the name of training as a private security office in my past career, I agree that tazers are a viable, less-lethal option on the force contiuum. The problem with them is, that there arent any real viable studies about what long term effects 50k volts of 5 seconds may have. There have been instances where the muscle contractions are so severe as to break bone. Maybe that was necessary at the time. But I can also say, from having lived in Albuquerque, NM, that the police who regularly carry tazers tend to become desensitized to the effects that this weapon (yes kids it is a weapon) may have. When we first started to see these things employed on a rather wide spread basis, it made sense and when it made the news people thought, ok, the cop took down the bad guy and didnt have to shoot him. But now, police across the country (ie New Jersey, specifically Jersey City and also Virginia Beach, VA) are getting so blaise about using them that barely a day goes by where somebody does get to ride the lightening. Someone who doesnt want to hand the cop their drivers license, someone who turns the wrong way when teh police officer tells them to move left and they go right, officers who are involved in short pursuits and then walk up to the window, order it rolled down and taze the driver. These arent the little no damage toys that they look like. While the amperage may be different, and the length of time over which the voltage is applied may be shorter, a tazer deploys 50k volts over 5 seconds and can continue to do so (I just learned this) indefinately as long as the probes remain in place. This is more voltage than in used in an electric chair. That voltage is 7500 over 15 seconds, the again for 15 seconds if the person is still alive. There is a reason why the police in the State of IL that carry tazers are required to call EMS to remove the probes and examine the tazee before that person can be taken into custody. Better than bullets? Hell yes! The perfect answer to ever use of force situation NO!. And that student that everyone is so blithley referring who was tazed multiple times by multiple offices did not meet anything close to the criterion for that amount of force on the continuum. If you have ever seen a tazer wound, you know that they leave two marks where the flesh is burned down to the sub q layer. And having had a tazer deployed against me during a training exercise, I can tell you that it not a matter of as soon as the officer lets off the juice the hurt is over. The weapon leaves people confused, often unable to comply with further commands which usually gets them tazed again. It affects short term memory and can cause the loss of bladder and bowel control. I went on a call during my clinicals and found a man who had lost ALL bodily function control. And yes, despite what the literature may say, these weapons can be lethal. So if the officer is using it as a lesser step on the force continuum, and it does end up killing the subject, then what? Tazers are not the "magic bullet" as it were.

Doc- continue to educate at will. If you will notice, I also cited a source from a monograph on Phenergan in my post. Are those considered valued sources of information?

If interviews with experts in the field are not valid research options, why do academic groups like the Modern Language Association continually update there methods for documenting these sources in research articles, papers, etc. But, Doc, thanks for hijacking the thread.

PS Bushy- For an example of the bashing of Basics, you need only to actually READ Dust's posting about Basics not knowing NC's for extension tubing. Nuff said?