letmesleep

rookie, I don't think I ever asked about your pay, quite honestly I DON'T CARE, and that is me personally. As I stated before, If you choose to make the EMT-I level a career choice you are the fool, but using it as a stepping stone is understandable so the fact that YOU have a plan is acceptable, and not that YOU need my approval, but that is what I have been saying the whole time. The fact that you felt the need to defend that level of provider fell on your shoulders. As far as you using my career as a stepping stone does bother me, BUT only if you are using it as a hobby. There are plenty of us here and abroad that make EMS a career and raise our families on it. I have no issue with you or anyone else working in this field to make the rent while your on your way to the L&D floor, but have some respect for those of us who have chosen to make this our lives, and we will help you on your way up the ladder. sirduke, The EMT-I level is only the lazy way out of being a medic, and yes it is a simple way for one to be the "big man on the truck". It is the easy way of obtaining rank over an EMT without committing yourself to the education of being a medic. EMT-I is pulling the wool over the eyes of the people we serve....period. The public as a whole really has NO idea the difference in levels and what those letters on your collar mean. They see some lazy, uneducated EMT-I starting an IV based soley off of the "cookbook" protocols, and assume that they are medics. You stated that your plan is to further your education as well, and head off to nursing, so why did you get so damn offended by the statements made? If you are making EMT-I your career choice, then you are lazy and on a power trip. Get off your ass an get a REAL education! If you are in this position for paying the bills so you can continue your education then fine, I understand that you may need to do this, but don't sit here and tell me or any other medic that deserves the respect of being an educated medical provider and/or professional that this level is anything other than insignificant, it isn't! As for AK and Dust, apology requests for jumping the gun on page 1 can be made by calling 1-let-me-sleep........LOL

Dust, come on..........

EMT-I can do D50, EPI, IVS, NITRO, ASA, O2......really? You can do all of that? Wow! As I stated previously I truly hope you plan on expanding your education within your career choice. There is so much more out there, and yes I can't stand for any one making the EMT-I level a career. EMT-I as a career choice is in my opinion is just simply a lazy way to boss EMTs around, and be the "big man in the truck". I understand if it is a "stepping stone" on your way to furthering your education much like the EMT would be for a serious EMS provider, but to make it your career of choice is just plain lazy. If you were offended by any of my comments, I'd suggest picking up the phone and making inquiries about the next medic class.

http://health.state.ga.us/programs/ems/index.asp O.C.G.A. § 31-11-53 (Copy w/ Cite) Pages: 2 O.C.G.A. § 31-11-53 GEORGIA CODE Copyright 2008 by The State of Georgia All rights reserved. *** Current through the 2008 Regular Session *** TITLE 31. HEALTH CHAPTER 11. EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES ARTICLE 3. PERSONNEL O.C.G.A. § 31-11-53 (2008) § 31-11-53. Services which may be rendered by certified emergency medical technicians and trainees (a) Upon certification by the department, emergency medical technicians may do any of the following: (1) Render first-aid and resuscitation services as taught in the United States Department of Transportation basic training courses for emergency medical technicians or an equivalent course approved by the department; and (2) Upon the order of a duly licensed physician, administer approved intravenous solutions. ( While in training preparatory to becoming certified, emergency medical technician trainees may perform any of the functions specified in this Code section under the direct supervision of a duly licensed physician or a registered nurse. HISTORY: Code 1933, § 88-3112.3, enacted by Ga. L. 1977, p. 281, § 4. I stand corrected AK, and to the OP my apologies. After some review of the GA codes I now know that the basic level in GA is the EMT-I, and I do hope that your plan is to advance in your career choice. I still feel that the EMT-I level is a waste of every ones time when you choose to enter in to the field and stop at this level. EMT-I in most areas is a "in between" level that is misused by people who want to be medics but don't want to go through all the education. Obviously that last statement is incorrect in GA, and I thank you AK for pushing me to educate myself a little this am and learn a new "thing" today. Getting back to the resume, using term such as general EMT(I) duties in my opinion is something to stay away from because it makes you look to lazy to expand on your job description. So definitely point out specifics. Also the above listed code should give you some help defining your certification

It isn't really that funny tho AK, if you think about it. stopidrookie is trying to put together a job description for one of the most insignificant levels of EMS care out there, not a basic and not a medic, just kinda floating around in the middle somewhere. I don't know maybe thats where you found the humor..............

I will agree that Richards scenario wasn't the best example for the sake of this discussion either, but the point he's trying to make is still there. There are plenty of issues within current work environments that exist today including being fired because the person your supervisor is banging wants a job, the administrative office didn't like that you thought outside the "cookbook" medicine protocols that were put in place even if you did get approval to treat in this manner from an ED MD. The point is, is that plenty of issues arise in current practices of EMS, and the unions are there to protect you from undue discipline, which we all know happens in this field because there are no real standards, as we all bitch about here on these threads.

LOL, why? I was actually questioned recently by another poster here (DwayneEMTP) who I respect as well as those like Vent, Dust, R/r, and others, about why I didn't challenge him and these other folks. Call them out, they have plenty to teach in many different areas, and quite honestly I think they enjoy it my union brother..........

'A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide recruitment and retention incentives for volunteer emergency service workers.' Bill # S.1840 Original Sponsor: Hillary Clinton (D-NY) Cosponsor Total: 3 (last sponsor added 10/03/2007) 2 Democrats 1 Independents About This Legislation: 7/20/2007--Introduced. Volunteer Emergency Services Recruitment and Retention Act of 2007 - Amends the Internal Revenue Code to allow sponsors of certain deferred compensation plans to elect to include length of service award plans for bona fide volunteers providing fire fighting and prevention services, emergency medical services, ambulance services, and emergency rescue services. Directs the Secretary of Labor to issue regulations exempting a length of service award program from treatment as an employee pension benefit plan under the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA). found here: http://www.emtcity.com/phpBB2/link.php?url...t/issues/bills/ So am I wrong or are these the type of issues that the NAEMT are lobbying for? This of course is only one of the issues I found on your web address Vent, the others that I saw immediately were for monies to be distributed to homeland security and the DOT. I'm sure that if you go to www.IAFF.org you will find issues in regards to FFs that are being lobbied for in congress, which can be construed as NOT EMS related. I have NO doubt that this argument could be thrown back in my face in regards to the IAFF. My point is that the NAEMT is lobbying for EMS VOLUNTEERS which are just as evil here in EMTcity as FIREFIGHTERS, so how is the NAEMT any better than the IAFF in this situation?

SAD? How does this not piss you off? As a medical professional, with very limited psych education and/or training I may come off a bit harsh, but as an adult and a parent the only sorrow I have is for the kids involved. I am not against listening to a depressed Pt and making an attempt beyond just transporting them to the hospital, but to feel any sorrow towards this woman is beyond me. I realize that the point of this story is to feel sad for these children, but I can't seem to get past the anger I have towards the woman that they call Mom. I do realize that there is more to the human psyche than purely self reasons for suicide, but suicide is exactly that, selfish. To do such damage to your own children is unforgivable, and I will admit that it is not up to me to forgive in this instance, it is up to these kids, but damn! Sorry for the rant, and I know I'm going to take heat for this post, but I just had to vent the anger.

Unionization or association, either way we are using the tool available to us to better the work environment and the system as best we can. Is it your business how much is coming out of MY pocket for this? The point of the matter is, is that in any regard we are all after the same thing aren't we? I have said it before in this thread, if all is working great without a union, a union is not needed, and I doubt seriously that you will hear one union member dispute that statement. I have also admitted that the IAFF may NOT be the best thing for EMS, however is there a better union out there for those of us who utilize those services? As you can see at the top of page 4, mstovall is involved with the Boilermakers local P-3. How exactly is there union better for EMS than the IAFF? The point here is that we always read complaints of lack of pay, longevity in the field sucks, work conditions are crap, we are NOT recognized as a profession, and constantly there are those here who state clearly that "NO CHANGE WILL EVER OCCUR UNTIL YOU GET OFF YOUR ASS AND DO SOMETHING TO EFFECT CHANGE", so how have those here that are adamantly anti-union effecting change for OUR profession? How is it that your means are BETTER than the way we (those of us who are unionized) have chosen to effect change?

Am I reading this correctly? Now we are comparing medics to MDs? That has to be the most ridiculous thing I have read in a very long time. How is it that anybody would think for two seconds that a MD would start running EMS calls in PLACE of medics? I agree with Dust, Setting up clinics would come first and thus sending the medical community in to a tail spin back to the 1800's, and the days of house calls. I could see some good and bad with that scenario, but does anyone think it would really happen in the US with our desire for convenience? RRT and Rns would be way more logical in this aspect which tells me that we as medics are not even secure with our level of education. Guess this should be a wake up call for all of us who are comfy to continue educating ourselves for the sake of job security.

p3medic, you lost me, and I am asking for some clarification about your last post. I am IAFF, the district I work for is county run tax based, we have been IAFF for approx 18 years now. How exactly will the IAFF roll right over us? just curious

Can you explain to me how exactly unionization is dragging down an entire profession? Did I not effectively describe the need for change, and the changes that were made as employees, due to the help of the union? Listen, I'm not sitting here tell you or anybody else NEEDS to join a union to be happy in their job. It is however an effective tool to better not only the work place but the system as well. Its obvious that there are issues that you and others here have about any union, but the IAFF is for sure enemy number one for you, I'm guessing because of the two f's together at the end. When this shop formed we were the first in the county to organize. Since that time we are one shop of four in this county alone. The work environment for those other districts have improved 10 fold, and turn over rate have drastically improved over time. So how exactly did the union drag down this county EMS system? I do kick back in a very nice "EZ boy" chair when watching TV, and sipping on my virgin margaritas while being fed grapes by half naked exotic women.....it is also in my contract!

Reaper, As far as needing them now, the answer is going to be no. I have stated that we get along great with the BOD, now. The unfortunate issue in that case is that the BOD is an elected position, therefore could change at any given time, thus giving us the reason to maintain membership with our union. The union lobbies for many issues, both for the work place and improving the 911 system as a whole. Are they the leaders in the betterment of our profession? No, but neither are organizations similar to MEMSA as I have said before. The joint effort is what it is going to take to win the battles that EMS is faced with everyday. Therefore my membership with the IAFF would be no different than any membership of an organization that is out there fighting for our profession, an extra bonus is the benefits that I have listed of course. So yes I have "changed the channels". As far as me and my fellow employees standing up together to get what we want, would you not be describing unionization? Let play this out a bit, lets say we decide to drop our membership with the IAFF, and all continue to work here. Then lets say that in the next election the BOD changes, and starts taking away that 75% family coverage that we get now. We all get together as a group (of course remembering the old union days), and decide we are not going to tolerate it. We then decide to go in and fight to keep that benefit. Will it work if only one of us expresses that we are not happy? No, it will take all 24 of us to make the point. Guess what, we just reorganized and united, last time I checked, that was unionization. Could we leave and just say I don't want to work there anymore? Sure, but what if we actually enjoy working at this place? What if, as union members, we enjoy our jobs?

I will agree that the unions are flawed as is every other organization out there related to EMS. Sounds to me that there are a couple of people that need to do some more research about unions. The IAFF which is fire based (flaw for EMS) does lobby for the betterment of the 911 system. They do lobby for increased education, and yes I have seen some posts here slamming that issue, but they were letters from a chief's club....NOT the IAFF. The IAFF isn't the only union doing this either, look in to the teamsters. Do some research about the political fights that the unions are involved in, then come back and tell me that they don't care about anything more than my pay and benefits. I find it humorous that because I answered a question, that I am now selfish because I support MY union. Time and time again here on these posts in the "city" you see pissing and moaning about being overworked and under paid, a lack of education, piss poor equipment, so on and so forth. When I get asked what the union has done for me, I answered it, and from what I can tell the work conditions in my immediate situation are bad ass. I could only hope that most, if not all, of us could have similar work conditions. Instead I get opinions that are obviously out dated about the unions, or just plain uneducated.

This is correct, and let me be the first to say as a hard core union member, if the employees are being taken care of and the district has what is needed to be effective, then there is NO need for a union! Thats right I said it! My situation, in the beginning, was NOT one of those situations, but due to the unionization of OUR employees, and the strength of our shop we have been able to utilize the tools of being unionized to effectively increase the level of our system to the point that we are at now, and are working towards the future. Dust, let me ask again, do you pay for any membership related to EMS, and bettering EMS, such as MEMSA? If so, how do you feel it is any different than paying for union dues such as in my case? I did address that question to Dust, but really any one of you who feel similar, that question is for you.

LOL......without sounding like a pig, I'd say let the women work......its less overtime I need to pull to cover the bills......lol oh, come on it was a joke! Seriously tho cheeky, If you two don't "need" your check, and will be financially stable without it, what about going back part-time instead of full-time. It will get you some time at work, but not over power you by having that full-time responsiblity. You will be at home most of the time as well, sounds like a win win to me......just a thought!

Damn, I take off for 36 hrs and this thread exploded, with so many issues to answer and discuss this may be a little long winded, so please bare with me. Reaper, my district has been unionized for approx 18 years now. When the union came in we were extremely under paid, and dealing with old out-dated equipment, and quite frankly treated like slugs by our board of directors (BOD will be used throughout the rest of this post in reference to the board of directors). The BOD consists of 6 members that are elected by the taxpayers of the district, so the represent said taxpayers. After struggling for numerous years to improve the service to the residents as the largest district (EMS only) in the county, and ourselves for that matter, we got nowhere. The union was approached for representation and we joined the IAFF 2665. At the time we were staffed with 2 ambulances and 8 full-time employees that ranged from EMT to medic covering approx 244sq miles of rural and small urban communities. Since then we have grown to 4 ambulances staffed with 24 employees, 22 medics and 2 EMTs, both of the EMTs are finishing their medic education currently. We average approx 3000+ calls per year, and have an average transport time of 45 minutes, call turn around time is approx 2 hours from dispatch to in service. We have managed to become the leaders of emergency medical care for the county and the place that most other county districts strive to work at, is that a cocky statement? maybe, but fact is fact. Now with all of that to soak in, lets talk about the benefit package. Starting pay for a new medic here is approx 38 to 39,000 per year with top out after 5 years at 49 to 50,000, we just got a raise so I'd have to look up those numbers to be more accurate. Medical coverage for employees is 100%, and families is 75% paid by the district with reimbursement for specialist of 50% ($40 co-pay, we get $20 back from the district). CEUs are 100% paid by the district, and $1000 per year education reimbursement for 4 years to be used at anytime during your employment. We also receive longevity pay, vacation time, sick time, paid time for education,emergency leave, short-term and long-term disability, holiday pay, retirement, uniforms allowance including boots....and the list goes on! We do work 24hr shifts, but at this pace, its not bad AT ALL.....lol Equipment, last year we purchased 4 brand new AEV ambulances with the GMC chassis that we had full decision power with. The committee included 3 medics and 2 BOD members who basically were there to watch the money and nothing else. Our trucks are air cooled while plugged in, in house, and have built in refrigerators for those meds that require refrigeration. We run out of 3 houses currently that are all <10 years old, and are maintained by outside resources (grass, paint, so on and so forth). We utilize the LP12 that is adapted to bluetooth for 12 lead transmission to the ERs that we service. Am I spoiled? you damn right I am! The relationship between us and our BOD is strong now and has remained strong over the years due to the strength of our shop. The IAFF lobbies in jeff city (MO) for both FF interests and the interests of EMS due to the fact that here in MO the 2665 has more EMS personnel than FFs. That might be a stretch, but the 2665 has at least 10 EMS districts that are TAX based county run that I can think of right off the top of my head. The numbers are staggering, and you can get a more accurate number here: www.iaff2665.org So what has my union done for me? I'd have to say they have done a great job of getting me a lot of the things that all of us here in the "city" piss and moan about not having. If you get in to the web site I provided you, you can also look at some of the other contracts from the other agencies involved in the 2665 (EMS). The money does have to come from somewhere as was stated, but many of the districts have a sales tax in place of 1/4 cent, which is a recent thing state wide and is knocking off the property taxes paid by the residents.....it is slow, but is working well. p3medic, in regards to needing my head examined, I'd like to compare benefit packages with you if you still feel the way you do after reading this. I guessing you may reconsider your statement a little following this post, but maybe not. I have been in EMS alone for 15 years in the great state of MO with NO FF experience. I have been involved in the teamsters union with a private company (gateway ambulance out of St Louis), and I'll take the IAFF any day. Yes they are FF based, but they seem to understand EMS better than the teamsters do. In that 15 years I have never had the need to join or support the MEMSA organization I listed in my previous post because of the above mentioned. I am sure they do some good within the state, but as I have listed above, they have had NOTHING to do with us getting what WE have.

A married Irishman went into the confessional and said to his priest, 'I almost had an affair with another woman.' The priest said, 'What do you mean, almost?' The Irishman said, 'Well, we got undressed and rubbed together, but then I stopped.' The priest said, 'Rubbing together is the same as putting it in. You're not to see that woman again. For your penance, say five Hail Mary's and put $50 in the poor box ' The Irishman left the confessional, said his prayers, and then walked over to the poor box. He paused for a moment and then started to leave. The priest, who was watching, quickly ran over to him saying, 'I saw that. You didn't put any money in the poor box!' The Irishman replied, 'Yeah, but I rubbed the $50 on the box, and according to you, that's the same as putting it in!'

Interesting thoughts reaper.......ummmm.....I work for a county run, tax based, EMS only, 911 service. I also belong to a union. Just food for thought!

As they should.....for their client. If it is intent then wouldn't the victim be intitled to some kind of damages? At least in an American court room.

Leave it.....already have a pair..........a slightly used suction canaster with tubing

I must have misread your post, I now see and understand what you wrote. Thanks for the correction and I do apologize!

I find it funny how quickly folks around here slam the unionized people. It is the same old arguments: 1) I had a bad experience with a union so I hate them all 2) unions never follow thru with their promises 3) unions always protect the slugs that deserve to get fired 4) blah blah blah It is true that there are awful unions out there, and you may have a bad relationship with one of them, but why does that make them all suck? Unions are, as tnuqs stated, "no different from any politician/s, let them run free rein and thats what one gets, but be involved and keep's them responsible, just saying life is always a double edged sword."I have never understood paying union dues and not being involved, it would be no different than paying for cable tv and never changing the channel. How does one pay for a service and never explore what is involved? Unions do protect those who get in to trouble, and do what they can to get their jobs back, but, and I know this may be a stretch for some, if you don't get in to trouble....why do you have to worry about anything? Let me ask all of you who oppose unions. How many of you pay for a membership to any EMS organization? MEMSA is one in Missouri for instance. Now how have they helped you and your profession? What is the benefit of paying for the membership every year? It has been stated time and time again here in the "city" that EMS is in a state of disarray. So when and how are these different organizations going to make significant change? What is the difference? edited to add: http://www.memsa.org/content/view/23/64/ The web site for MEMSA.

Dwayne, some absolutely good points that do make me stop and re-question this discussion. Based off of the video, the officer had the Pt and was escorting him to the side door of the second truck when he pulled away (with very little resistance, might I add), and began running around the unit. I don't feel as if any of them could have really reacted much differently before he bounced off of the first trucks back doors, however they did glove or reglove to help him as quickly as possible. I will admit that he did repeatedly bounce his head on the pavement before somebody (the original provider) grabbed him to assist. As an outsider from this scene it does appear that there was not a lot of "help" prior to sitting him on the curb by EMS, but we still don't know what occurred prior to the second truck arriving on scene. What I am trying to explain is that given the time frame of the video, This Pt was being escorted/ he pulled away from the cop/ he bounced off the ambulance/ then was picked back up and taken to the second ambulance. Would I be happy if this had accrued on a scene of mine, NO. It just doesn't appear that any of them could have reacted any differently or faster then they had. I totally agree with you that much of what we do is "picking up the pieces" of our Pts. We do save people from their own hand so to speak, everything from self induced intoxication to simple eating crap and not exercising. This Pt is one of those cases and I think that is clear to anyone of us with, as I said before, two working brain cells. I will state as well that as much as I seem to be defending this crew to a certain extent, I can not say that I find the humor in this situation as they did (note the end of the video). I may have misunderstood what I read in your post Dwayne, but I believe you stated that this is a good video for ethics discussion Quote: And I'll guarantee that any of you that can't see the ethics lessons in this video have never had an ethics class. Ethics is all about "what if", "why?", "Why not?" etc....it certainly is a valuable video for that. If I'm wrong I will apologize, but with that said, how? Although I can see learning tools within the video, I don't understand how ethics come in to play here due to the time factor. To answer your two questions: 1) yes, since they took it upon themselves to take on a second Pt, they have a moral obligation to protect him, but is he in jeopardy with the officer? Speaking for myself, I always escort my Pts to the ambulance.....yes always. I stay with my Pt at all times once I am committed to them which is something I have done since day one of my medic career, this is something I picked up while attending Bob Pages multi-lead class. I can also tell you that had I been on this scene I would have tried to pick this Pt up bare handed when he was bouncing off the ground, but that is me. Is it wrong, with all the pounding in to the heads of the newer generation of providers to put his gloves on before he touches this Pt, unless we interview this medic to know what his reason behind this is (disease or because he is poor) we will never know. Let me also state that if it is because of this mans race or financial status....I'll be the first to step up and fry his ass!! 2)Absolutely, once you have committed yourself to a Pt, you are their advocate, and it is up to you to handle their needs medically, socially, emotionally, yada yada (relax I did that to mess with ya Dwayne). We have an obligation to help, protect, fight for all of our Pts with no option to pick and choose. Again tho, we don't know this particular medic, and what makes him tick. So where do we go from here? This is an unfortunate situation for the Pt, the cop, and the EMS crews, but what could they have done differently? How could they have reacted faster? We can sit here and pick them apart all day long, but what did they really do wrong here? Not strap this guy down to stretcher?